Stadia is one of those things that never made sense to me. The biggest problem is that it requires a stable internet with a low ping. Not all of us have that. And the second being that we never actually have access to the games we purchase through it.

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Quoting: Glog78The command line and everything outside of officially provided packages (including protontricks / proton-ge and many more tools) are not newbie friendly and shouldn't be adviced to newbies if we want to be really newbie friendly.

This has actually been one of my biggest arguing points when talking to other Linux people. Stop recommending the command line to new users. If someone is inexperienced, can we PLEASE find a way to do it in the gui for them?

Quoting: GuestI think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Which is fine.

On which part? That it was easy to bypass the pop shop? Or that he's familiar with tech?

If the latter, he has managed to drop virtually every hardware component in existence, if that counts...

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: AussieEeveeI agree in part. the CLI is not intended for newbies, but Linus was able to find a guide online and managed to bypass the protection offered to him by the gui, with only a single command and a verify command.

Adding protections doesn't make this dumbed down like Windows. It just adds protections.

Actually this raises a good point: what does the apt change do that would have made anything different for a youtuber who wanted page views? Type this, then type that. It doesn't matter if it's one line or ten - he would have followed everything written. So the change to apt? Yeah, wouldn't have done anything in this case.

Someone deliberately wanting to break their system (Like Beamboom) or any clickbait youtubers? It won't change a thing. It might also not change a thing for people following guides, I don't know. I think pop's solution was a bit more obvious than debian's solution for this reason.

Also, the original error message from the gui was exactly stopping critical packages from being removed! The original gui error message was stopping the very thing that was then done explicitly from the command line.

I completely agree with you on this point. I think Pop Shop could have been a bit more clear on what had happened, but it did offer some protection.

Unfortunately, it was far too easy for Linus to bypass the protection offered by Pop Shop without really knowing what he was doing - and this is a guy that's familiar with tech.

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Quoting: GuestI'm not saying the change itself is/isn't reasonable, but I'll have to disagree that the response wasn't knee-jerk. The time from news stories to the change was too short for any meaningful conversation to have taken place, and I can't actually find any record of one having taken place prior to the change being done. Which could be a search failure on my part, so if there is one do please let me know!

Maybe different wording? Different methods of displaying the information? Was the problem apt, or software running on top of it? Does this really address the problem? Who does it impact negatively? All kinds of questions that should've been considered before making a change that potentially impacts absolutely every distro (and by extension every person using them) built on apt - and the change (or changes, rather) don't document anything governing the rationale.

He specifically ran
sudo apt install steam

and then read the final line on the screen, and followed that instruction to type "do as I say".

I think if apt displayed that information in a clearly and more obvious form, Linus would have seen it and avoided uninstalling xorg by accident.

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Quoting: Glog78I haven't said anything in a long time, but i am really "pissed" off what is currently happening. If i wanted a os which takes my hand and makes assumptions or decissions for me i would have stayed with windows or mac os ...

There is an override switch.

It's not making assumptions or decisions for you. It simply has a protection to prevent removing system critical packages by accident.

No one is taking anything away from you. apt is simply being made more newbie friendly. You can still break your system as much as you want.

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Quoting: BeamboomAh! And why is that?... Ponder on that one for a bit, and then come back to me and tell me again why we should pad Linux like how Windows and MacOS works. :)

Because it's not new user friendly.

Quoting: BeamboomThat's your definition of me, not mine. I do not consider myself to be an elitist at all. I just realise that Linux is not for everyone. I'm even surprised that is a controversial opinion.

This is a controversial opinion because it's the definition of gatekeeping, and it is time gatekeeping stopped happening.

Quoting: BeamboomThe "white noise" between those VERY clear warnings were a listing of what exact packages we talk about. Information. Stuff you would not get on Windows, cause there it's just a generic popup with a red warning sign and a "something went wrong". No white noise... But is that how we want it? Really?!

There is a huge leap between "wall of text" white noise like apt spat at Linus... and what Windows does.

My suggestion was to separate the warning with line breaks on either side of it and simply make the warning a different colour.

Quoting: BeamboomThis is something that new users - ergo us all, every single one of us - has experienced on our Linux system during our first year for DECADES now. And then some celebrity (whom I have no idea who is but it seems the rest of you are on first name with) whines about it on youtube (or Twitch or wherever he's "influencing") and all of a sudden the entire Linux community jump like puppets.
Pathetic, is what it is.

So? And? What?

My dad had to walk to the corner store, buy a newspaper, go home and read it to get the news when he grew up. All I do is go on YouTube or whatever site you want to go on.

And yes, it's pathetic that it took a guy like Linus to discover a major problem with the way apt handles packages. This nonsense should have been fixed years ago.

I get it. You want your tough as nails, punishing, extremely hard to use operating system. That's YOUR idea of an OS. It doesn't mean others need to rub their face with a cheese grater every time they want to install packages.

And as I said, you can remove the protection if you want with a simple switch. Heck, you're the elitist. Get the apt source code, remove that function and compile apt yourself. These are choices available to you.

Linux is not longer a closed community. It's open to people like Linus. It's open to people like my dad (who barely knew how to turn on a computer, but used Linux Mint for 5 years). It's open to the teenager who just wants to play games. It's open to the accountant, and the [other profession].

Quoting: GuestCommand line applications are traditionally for those with a little more experience, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. GNU/Linux is not Windows, should not try to be Windows, and should definitely not try to dumb down something that's been at its core (the ability to tinker).

I agree in part. the CLI is not intended for newbies, but Linus was able to find a guide online and managed to bypass the protection offered to him by the gui, with only a single command and a verify command.

Adding protections doesn't make this dumbed down like Windows. It just adds protections.

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Quoting: BeamboomThose who just want a consumer box to do their gaming on - why on earth should they install Linux to begin with?

Linux is a fundamentally better operating system in most respects... and people are sick and tired of being told how to run their computers by Microsoft and Apple. They want to take control of their system, and Linux is the ideal choice for that.

And why shouldn't it be? Linux can be for everyone and people should stop gatekeeping Linux.

And for the record, apt protecting newbies doesn't mean you can't break your system if you want. You just need to use the override switch. Have fun reinstalling for the millionth time.

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Quoting: BeamboomBut if you're after a OS that completely PADS you inside a fuzzy box where you can do nothing to harm you - well then Linux is not, was never and hopefully never will be your right choice.

Is it necessary to be a Linux elitist?

Yes, the warning was tiny. Two lines, to be exact... In among a dozen lines of white noise. A novice user is not going to read all that white noise.

Linus being an influencer doesn't make his problem invalid either. This was a legitimate problem, and I'm glad to see they fixed it.

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Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: AnachronyXHow false Linux changed the world of Linux, because he can't read.

I find this whole thing to be so embarrassing I'm not even sure what to say.

Some idiot "influencer" breaks his system and the entire community jumps.

... When I put it like that I'm not sure who's actually the idiots here.

There are no idiots here. Just a broken package, installed by a broken package manager. That steam package should have never been pushed to the pop OS repos, and apt should have never let it install. There is a tiny little warning blended in with all the other white noise on the screen, and blaming Linus is just silly.

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Quoting: NociferDon't know if it was intentional or not, but this tidbit here kind of blatantly equates "Linus Sebastian" to "idiot", heh :P

To be entirely fair, Linus does have a habit of breaking... I mean, dropping... things.

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