Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: tuubiBeing LGBTQ (if that's the right combo of letters these days) doesn't and shouldn't afford immunity from criticism.

It ain't the case and has never been the case in founded on an abrahamic religion cultures down to the point that we legit don't know what it is to never face any criticism at all ...

I get your point, but that doesn't change the fact that nobody deserves a free pass. And I mean individuals specifically, not communities.

Quoting: TheSyldatThat's the thing that you seem to forget about . We're the children of a community that is only now gaining some respect which is cool . Problem is our oppressor isn't a mob of people , it's a mob of old ideas and old reflexes that you all have and that you never questionned .

No, I didn't forget about that and yes, I did question them obviously. If you meant "you" as in "people who are not part of our community", please be careful with that. It reeks of "us vs. them", or worse "us vs. you".

I think this is just your garden-variety fear of the different that we need to overcome as a species. Not a product of any religion or culture, but often strengthened and legitimized by them.

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Quoting: GuestWell, the thing is, I think there's a huge amount of controllers that are in use that are read as X360 controllers but are in fact not X360 controllers, like my Logitech Rumblepad, it's shaped like a ps2 controller, but instead of PS2 labels it has xbox labels on the buttons, and on the underside of it it has a "logitech controller" mode and "x360 controller" mode, the latter of which gives it a lot better compatibility since logitechs controller drivers are shit and not as widely supported as XINPUT.

Are you sure? My old Logitech F310 has the D/X switch, but the system correctly recognizes it as a Logitech regardless of the mode. Or it did before the controller got permanently stuck in xinput. lsusb shows "046d:c21d Logitech, Inc. F310 Gamepad [XInput Mode]". There are probably some cheap clones that do present false data, but it's hard so say how much that skews the totals.

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Quoting: TheSyldatSo again I renew do we need a CoC ? Yes my day to day life is constant testimony about how much we need one.
The one we have right now ? Fuck no that template CoC is way too vague way too exploitable and we need to adress that before somebody starts to play dumb with the wording.

I'll paraphrase my previous reply: I seriously think this CoC—despite not going to much detail—gives some definition as to what constitutes disruptive behaviour and is thus better than nothing at all.

I liked their previous "Be excellent to each other", but sadly people pick and choose who that applies to. This document makes it clear that it applies to everyone. It gives examples of abuse and harassment, but lets the people in charge (note, people in plural) use their judgment. Leeway is good in this case, because otherwise you'd need to list every possible infraction like in criminal law to plug any loopholes, and that's an endless and thankless task. We'll just have to put our trust in the integrity of the board until they prove to be lacking.

I know you're invested for obvious reasons, but please don't make this black and white. Something is definitely better than nothing, and this document does not make it harder for you or anyone else to contribute to the Linux kernel. Whatever misgivings you have about the specifics can and should be discussed in detail, but this requires diplomacy, not warfare.

Off topic: I personally know a shy, intelligent young girl with similar hormonal and genetic traits as you describe. I say similar, not same because in her case the feminine always overrode the masculine, but the cause (if that's the right word) was determined by doctors to be physiological and chemical, not psychological like slaapliedje would assume. As if that would make a difference. In any case, her personality made her dutifully try her best to be a boy with all that it entails, quite successfully it seems, but when she came of age recently, her parents allowed her to change her name and stop pretending to be what everyone in her immediate family knew she was not.

In the end, there are many reasons why someone might not fit the mould, most of them valid, and none of them any of my damn business. I'm a straight white male with poor social skills, and I might not be able to identify with someone different, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve my respect. Of course, words and actions are what determine your respectability, not your gender or sexuality. Being LGBTQ (if that's the right combo of letters these days) doesn't and shouldn't afford immunity from criticism.

Sorry, another incoherent wall of text. I should probably unsubscribe from this thread now...

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Quoting: scaineI thought it would give us seamless discrete card switching, better multi-monitor, smooth window scrolling everywhere, better switching into/out of fullscreen games, less tearing, more reliability. In fact, none of that has really happened. Indeed, Canonical found it less reliable and more likely to crash the whole session.

I see the point of it (cleaner code, more modern architecture), I just don't see why people care so much when it all boils down to is "it's cleaner behind the scenes". Especially when it actually brings major pain points to actually deal with - all the DEs having to support branches which support Wayland, no network support, no driver compatibility.

I feels weird to me.

I think that might be because Redhat is the only company properly pushing for desktop Wayland currently (as far as I know), and in the grand scale of things, there might be bigger priorities for them as well. On the other hand, Wayland has been doing the job perfectly on my old Jolla for years. Mobile was an easier and juicier target I guess, with many interested parties.

I don't know what Canonical tested but I doubt that the protocol itself caused the instability. Must have been the implementation, and in this specific case Gnome's Wayland compositor. Desktop is complicated, and you can probably see that the migration from X to the very different Wayland was never going to be technically simple.

I have no doubt Wayland will some day be the standard on desktop as well, but nearly twenty years on Linux have taught me to be patient. As you said, X might have its faults, but it does the job. That doesn't mean Wayland wouldn't be better.

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Quoting: slaapliedjeBeing paranoid because you might use the wrong pronoun to address someone is rather kind of silly once you think about it...

Apparently there's one thing we can agree on. It is a really silly thing to be paranoid about, and merits some self-analysis on the part of the sufferer.

My suggestion: Let's adopt Finnish as the official language of the Internet. We have no gendered pronouns to trigger this preposterous phobia.

I'll pretend you didn't write the rest of your post because it's simply too sad to contemplate.

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Quoting: slaapliedjeI'm not sure how the agenda is hidden, it's pretty plain. When contributors, even of software that isn't directly part of the source code (like the SC controller that just integrates with the kernel) decide to stop developing because of it, it's already caused damage. Whether intentional or not.

He paused development to make a statement. The price of progress I guess. Maybe he'll come around when this storm in a teacup blows over.

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Quoting: baccilus

Quoting: baccilusIs there anything in the world that can convince you that this CoC has hidden agendas?

No

I'll pretend that wasn't an attempt at sarcasm and answer: Sure there is. Or could be. Evidence would go a long way. So far we've seen nothing but heated speculation and dire predictions. On the other hand we've got thousands of projects that somehow failed to implode after adopting the same CoC.

I agree that the author of the template document obviously has a personal agenda of inclusiveness, and it's not hidden in any way. You're building them up to be an evil mastermind, when they're simply an activist who happened to write a set of guidelines for contributor conduct that was widely embraced by a whole bunch of software communities of their own free will. A tiny fraction of community members disagree (I assume) because they feel like they shouldn't be required to be respectful to people they don't like, regardless of context, and a larger minority disagrees for... various reasons that don't make much sense to me.

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Quoting: the3dfxdude

Quoting: lqe5433Wine is only working with X.org, and X.org will be replaced with Wayland really soon, so I don't see the point of this. Games should use SDL2 on Linux, or Wine needs to use Wayland.

That's the desktop-gaming oriented popular media opinion. I see linux usage in many companies, and there is no way Wayland will replace Xorg anytime soon. Xorg will continue to be the defacto standard for many years because that is where the real money is. Valve will likely continue to support the largest platform for market share as well.

I don't think either of these assessments is accurate. Most companies that use Linux simply do not care beyond the obvious: Things should work reliably and securely. Not many businesses depend on Xorg directly. This doesn't mean there's not a lot of work to do and a lot of inertia to overcome.

I can think of Redhat as one of the companies that actually do care, and they're rather enthusiastically pushing for Wayland, with Canonical now in the same boat. I don't remember any big company being against this development yet, but I might have missed something.

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Quoting: callcifer

Quoting: tuubiSince when is a Windows compatibility layer such an important concern that display server protocols should start accommodating its quirks?

Wine isn't a compatibility layer, it's the compatibility layer. When it comes to Linux adoption on the desktop it's one of the single most important pieces of software, ever.

I get why you'd say that, and I think Wine is a really cool piece of software, but it's still something I've never depended on for anything important. It was certainly not a factor in my adoption of Linux on the desktop all those years ago. Maybe the DE devs (or their employers) aren't that bothered about Windows software either.

Remember, Linux isn't a coherent community working for a single goal. We're a bunch of people and organisations with different priorities. That said, I bet a company of Valve's resources should be able to influence this, maybe by providing their own (fork of a) DE/compositor that's a better fit for Wine or simply by starting a discussion with the relevant developers.

Quoting: callcifer

Quoting: tuubiCan't speak about the DE folk, as I don't know what this would require of them. If it was mentioned in your IRC log, I'm sorry but it's too much of a wall of text to pore through.

What's required is for them to let windows position their own children. Not one DE developer managed to articulate why exactly that would be a security problem.

Wayland client windows don't know their own position on the desktop, so why should they be able to influence that of others? By my understanding of the Wayland design, if a (child) window needs special handling as a part of the UI, it shouldn't be a generic window but a surface directly controlled by the client. That's simply how the protocol was designed and I know it's different from what we're used to. This is a form of enforced sandboxing and a security feature.

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Quoting: callcifer

Wayland wouldn't have gained this much traction

On the desktop? 90%+ of Wayland usage is on not-desktop, like car infotainment systems. On the desktop, anyone using Nvidia is by necessity on X11 which, according to this very website, is almost 70% of users. So if anything has traction on desktop, it's X.

All major desktop toolkits working on Wayland support and distributions aiming to make it the default sure seems like traction to me. Of course I'm not expecting X to go away completely any time soon. Speaking of Nvidia, I expect they will come up with support as soon as their workstation clients demand it.

Quoting: callcifer

clearly not required to implement crucial features if current Wayland-compatible toolkits make do without it and have not complained about this. [...] Of course it's understandable that Wine could use a more Windows-compatible feature set and their frustration isn't unfounded.

It doesn't matter one bit what "Wayland compatible toolkits" are doing. Wine runs Windows programs. That's its entire reason of existence. As long as Windows uses windows to implement menus and dropdowns, Wine needs to do that too. So the responsibility in fixing this lies not with Wine people, but with the protocol and DE folks who, as you can see, are not interested in solving it.

I don't follow your reasoning. Wine has a problem, so Wayland needs to fix it? Since when is a Windows compatibility layer such an important concern that display server protocols should start accommodating its quirks? Can't speak about the DE folk, as I don't know what this would require of them. If it was mentioned in your IRC log, I'm sorry but it's too much of a wall of text to pore through.

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