Quoting: callcifer

but if you know where a window is positioned, you can scrape its contents or whatever.

These are completely orthogonal features. Saying "put this window over there" in no way implies "also give me its contents".

Furthermore, these are not arbitrary windows we are talking about - there is a parent/child relationship here and there are no security implications whatsoever in giving a parent window full control (yes including contents) over its children. After all, this is how all the other OSes work.

If they just copied what other OSes did, how could they innovate? Wayland wouldn't have gained this much traction if it was just a more modern X. It is simpler, cleaner and more secure than what it was designed to replace.

Besides, you ignored the point that the parent-child window relationship is clearly not required to implement crucial features if current Wayland-compatible toolkits make do without it and have not complained about this. A single Wayland client can manage its surfaces as it deems necessary, but it has no way to influence those of other clients and it cannot expect to manage the desktop. The fact that this is different from Windows and MacOS is hardly a bug. Of course it's understandable that Wine could use a more Windows-compatible feature set and their frustration isn't unfounded.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: Guestpolluting our social media

How dare they put something of little informational value in our putrid sea of toxic waste! :><:

So let me get this straight: Just because social media are already a putrid sea of toxic waste, we should add more on top of it?

A bit of marketing is like a drop in the ocean: It simply doesn't make a difference.

Quoting: GuestThese announcements are wasted energy and just NOISE. They don't increase Feral sales, they don't help Linux gaming, they do nothing but generate useless internet traffic and waste everyone's time.

I believe the contrary statements in this single thread debunk your theory. Some people obviously enjoy these messages, which means it's not a waste of their time.

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Quoting: callcifer

Quoting: tuubiI know it's inconvenient, but that "lol" is uncalled for. It's a bit over the top for most users, but not allowing access to other windows is a legit and actually rather obvious security measure.

This is not about "allowing access to other windows". The only concern here is whether a parent window should be able to dictate where a child window appears.

This does come down to the same technical decision. Don't know if this is their exact reasoning, but if you know where a window is positioned, you can scrape its contents or whatever. Of course they could add a workaround of some sort to the protocol (rememeber, wayland is a protocol, not a piece of software), but they choose not to. They probably think this is something that needs to be solved higher in the stack.

Remember that various Linux toolkits manage to provide pop-up menus that work fine with Wayland. It's just that Windows does it in an incompatible way, and Wine has to emulate that behaviour.

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Quoting: callciferUnder Wayland, however, windows are not allowed to position each other ("for security", lol) so it won't work.

I know it's inconvenient, but that "lol" is uncalled for. It's a bit over the top for most users, but not allowing access to other windows is a legit and actually rather obvious security measure. As far as I understand, this can be worked around for legacy applications on a higher level but it isn't straight-forward.

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Quoting: Guestpolluting our social media

How dare they put something of little informational value in our putrid sea of toxic waste! :><:

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Quoting: baccilus

Quoting: tuubiYet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary.

Problem is not "a written document". Problem is "this written document."

This document is better than no document. It would be too vague to base a criminal justice system on, but it serves its purpose as a guideline for an open source project just fine.

Quoting: baccilus

Quoting: tuubibut there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

Behaviour which is respectful in your opinion may be dicklike for someone else. What if the other person turns around makes a complaint against you for that? Would you like the hassle of clearing your name every time you utter a word? If you think this example is far fetched, let me tell you that it is not.

And how often does that happen to you? My social skills aren't great, and I've had to apologize after some of my worst jokes to my friends on occasion, but I've always deserved the backlash. Still, I don't remember any occasion where I had to "clear my name" because of something I did on the Internet. So no, I don't get your doomsday mentality. Not that this has anything to do with the CoC of the Linux kernel.

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Quoting: DolusThe problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me.

Why would you ever discuss your romantic preferences in the context of a software project? I don't see how it could ever be relevant. This really isn't that hard. The document doesn't care what you do on your own time.

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Quoting: baccilusThat is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

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Quoting: XicronicWhat happened almost immediately after the CoC being adopted? SJWs going after people they don't like: https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1042769399596437504?lang=en [External Link]

Sure, he didn't explicitly state that it is a political document for outing political opponents, but it's what's happened everytime a CoC is adopted, and it's what's happening with Linux now.

That's hyperbole. I don't believe it has "happened everytime a CoC is adopted", so that point is moot. Codes of conduct might have been rare in volunteer projects and open source communities, but that doesn't mean they're a new invention.

Quoting: Xicronic

Quoting: tuubiIn any case, you can all relax. The CoC doesn't give any power to anyone who isn't a maintainer of a Linux subsystem or module, and then only within their domain, and becoming a maintainer requires the same amount of expertise as ever. Nothing has changed with regard to meritocracy or the lack of.

People who do not contribute to the project at all use this as an opportunity to attack maintainers they don't like. Opal example: https://i.imgtc.com/1gasSBZ.png [External Link]

People attack other people all the time. There's always an excuse or a document to point at, be it the bible or whatever. Taking away the excuse isn't going to solve the problem, especially if the purpose of said excuse (the CoC) is to prevent toxic behaviour in the community.

Quoting: XicronicReally? Take a look at https://postmeritocracy.org/ [External Link] (written by none other than Coraline himself)

What does that site have to do with the Linux kernel? Obviously I meant that the CoC doesn't change how patches are evaluated or maintainers chosen. If it was based on technical merit before, these same people aren't likely to make different decisions just because they have this CoC that has nothing to do with those processes.

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Quoting: GuestPersonally, my main contention is the extension of the CoC to spaces outside of the mailing list. If was just there it would be a bit more palatable and somewhat reasonable given that it's a professional space. I'd hate to banned over a bit of trash talk in a live stream or video that isn't associated with my work.

The "Scope" paragraph is quite clear on this:

This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

(emphasis mine)

Nothing about what you get up to on your own time, when you're not representing anyone but yourself. Other developers might still want to avoid association with you for whatever reason, but that's their right as individuals. As long as this doesn't affect the evaluation of your code contributions by the maintainer.

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