Quoting: sarmad

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: sarmadNice. It's good to see that Steam Deck owners are also tinkering around with the desktop. This will help let people know that Linux desktop is now far more usable than most people think.

I've mixed feelings about that.
At one side it's a sign of failure, at the other it's a driver for improvement.
Pros:
A. Everyone tinkering on Linux makes the whole ecosystem slightly better, just by trying to improve their own experience and gaining expertise, information and sometimes even code to improve it(whoo FOSS collab).
B. It shows to them the value of controlling your own system.
Cons:
A. These people don't tinker for fun, but to run the software they want to run, which indicates that the out of the box experience is still subpar.

Not exactly. We are not talking about people tinkering; we don't know how many people are tinkering around with the desktop. This graph shows you people downloading new apps from Flathub, which means they are people looking beyond what can be found in the Steam store. They could be installing emulators, open source games, or maybe some desktop apps, and that has nothing to do with the experience being subpar. Quite the contrary, this is a positive experience where you are not locked down like is the case with consoles.

I will take to your positive outlook.
I could make a point that when people install emulators they're tinkering out of necessity and thus showing my point, because they are adding functionality to their device that wasn't in the default behavior to be able to do the usecase they bought the device for, but that is arguing semantics and I really want you to be right.
So @sarmand is right Steam Deck users are using flathub, because they're enjoying the freedom of FLOSS and not out of necessity:woot:.

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Quoting: Boldos

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: BoldosThus the question now is not IF the high-performance RISC-V CPUs will arrive to the market, but WHEN. And another question is whether it will be only Chinese chips, or if e.g. US or EU (or anyone else, like e.g. India?) will be able to keep up with China and whether they too will be able to design, produce and sell their own RISC-V CPUs...

2023 and yes:

Venturamicro launched a 4nm 3.6GHZ RISC-V processor in the USA back than. [External Link]
https://www.reddit.com/r/RISCV/comments/17q0y0t/ventana_veyron_v2_riscv_cpu_launched_for_the_dsa/ [External Link]

Yes, I know about this one. AFAIK it seems it has not been openly released yet, so not available yet to be bought and tested (AFAIK the full release is planned sometime by H2 2024).

Oops, I didn't know that.:whistle:
Now that I looked again:
From the website I actually get the impression that they won't do a full release and only license their IP and intel connections to companies that want their own custom versions, so we might never get a "full release"

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Quoting: BoldosThus the question now is not IF the high-performance RISC-V CPUs will arrive to the market, but WHEN. And another question is whether it will be only Chinese chips, or if e.g. US or EU (or anyone else, like e.g. India?) will be able to keep up with China and whether they too will be able to design, produce and sell their own RISC-V CPUs...

2023 and yes:

Venturamicro launched a 4nm 3.6GHZ RISC-V processor in the USA back than. [External Link]
https://www.reddit.com/r/RISCV/comments/17q0y0t/ventana_veyron_v2_riscv_cpu_launched_for_the_dsa/ [External Link]

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Quoting: sarmadNice. It's good to see that Steam Deck owners are also tinkering around with the desktop. This will help let people know that Linux desktop is now far more usable than most people think.

I've mixed feelings about that.
At one side it's a sign of failure, at the other it's a driver for improvement.
Pros:
A. Everyone tinkering on Linux makes the whole ecosystem slightly better, just by trying to improve their own experience and gaining expertise, information and sometimes even code to improve it(whoo FOSS collab).
B. It shows to them the value of controlling your own system.
Cons:
A. These people don't tinker for fun, but to run the software they want to run, which indicates that the out of the box experience is still subpar.

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Quoting: Boldos

Quoting: LoudTechieI see no hope in this.
RISC-V has an even less functional software ecosystem, so it's useless for most consumers.
Although the architecture of RISC-V is open source the firmware isn't yet and some ARM processors do offer open firmware making them more suited for tinkering, because making or manipulating your own chips requires a lot more resources than doing the same with firmware meaning its out of the range of most tinkerers.

Well, to paint a bigger picture here: majority of RISC-V CPUs, boards and complete solutions are coming from China as of now. (China designed, China manufactured)

You may ask: Why?
Well, one of the (IMHO brutally important) piece of the puzzle here is that RISC-V is an open standard, which is not and cannot be controlled by patents and/or export regulations (The RISC-V foundation moved itselt from US to Switzerland to ensure exactly that). And as a result China is investing huge amounts of money, time, know-how, and general resources, to leverage this tech to achieve at least some level of technological independence in CPU chip tech on "The West". So continuous investment into and development of RISC-V tech is of utmost strategic technological importance to China.

And so, the RISC-V tech train, with China at the wheel, has already departed, China ensures it is gaining speed, and it cannot be stopped, until China reaches it's technological CPU destination. And they don't care what The Rest of The World(tm) thinks of it, because, for once, with this 'patent&export regulation free' tech they don't have to take care of who (dis)agrees....

Thus the question now is not IF the high-performance RISC-V CPUs will arrive to the market, but WHEN. And another question is whether it will be only Chinese chips, or if e.g. US or EU (or anyone else, like e.g. India?) will be able to keep up with China and whether they too will be able to design, produce and sell their own RISC-V CPUs...

Russia is investing heavily as well especially, since it's now under even heavier tech restrictions than China, but
A. you're underestimating the power of technology restrictions and continued development, to be a success it doesn't have to be as good as a decade old iteration of "the west" architectures it has to be superior to the last state of "the west" architectures, those tech restrictions don't serve to keep them in the stone age, but keep them behind,
B. the US and the EU both also invest heavily in chips(just less RISC-V), since its also of strategic importance to them and
C. Although I admit there is hope for RISC-V in general my point was over Framwork RISC-V laptops specifically.

As to why framework won't profit of this
A. future performance is worth something in the software market, because a product bought in the past will be in the future its improved version, but this isn't true for hardware.
B. What makes Framework Framework isn't their openness or dev friendliness, but their ability to turn limited amounts of openness into modularity and make it useful to the less tech savy customer, which is exactly what RISC-V doesn't offer it offers tons of openness, but to change anything about your own version you need a chip manufacturing facility.
C. What makes RISC-V, so good is the freedom to customize it to your needs. In consumer laptops you don't know the needs of your consumer, so you've to make it generic. Eliminating this amazing strength.

Also Risc-V isn't actually patent free or free as in free software, the base architecture is(which is a big improvement), but lots of the innovations which make it competitive aren't.
This doesn't matter to nation states like China and Russia, since patents are easy to ignore for them, but for tinkerers and businesses it matters.
For tinkerers ARM and OpenPOWER(an open "the west" architecture with currently a better software ecosystem than RISC-V, with less nation state backing) are more free, because there are options with fully FOSS firmware(, which is more easily adjustable for people without manufacturing facilities).
For hardware businesses RISC-V and OpenPOWER are more free, because they can afford the remaining patents and the manufacturing facilities.
To software businesses RISC-V is more free, because there is no one foundation/company with power over every iteration and thus can't take their freedom away.

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Quoting: hell0

Quoting: LoudTechieI see no hope in this.
RISC-V has an even less functional software ecosystem, so it's useless for most consumers.
Although the architecture of RISC-V is open source the firmware isn't yet and some ARM processors do offer open firmware making them more suited for tinkering, because making or manipulating your own chips requires a lot more resources than doing the same with firmware meaning its out of the range of most tinkerers.

These devices are exactly what is needed for the software ecosystem to progress. There is only so much a software developper can do without testing his work on an actual device. It's definitely not for the masses yet.

Keep in mind, ARM is over 40 years old (project started in 1983) and x86 was released in 1978 (probably in the work a while before that).

Yet the masses is where framework shines.
Their laptop aren't particularly open, not particulary fast, but they made laptop modification and repair something anyone can enjoy instead of something you need specialized skills for.

Also developer aimed RISC-V already exist. We at least have the MNT(Pocket) Reform RISC-V version, the MuseBook and the DC Roma RISC-V serie.
It's a young technology with a lot of potential, but the desktop market is slow, demanding and unsuited for the current strengths of RISC-V.

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I see no hope in this.
RISC-V has an even less functional software ecosystem, so it's useless for most consumers.
Although the architecture of RISC-V is open source the firmware isn't yet and some ARM processors do offer open firmware making them more suited for tinkering, because making or manipulating your own chips requires a lot more resources than doing the same with firmware meaning its out of the range of most tinkerers.

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Quoting: ShadowXeldronI am slightly interested in RISC-V at least - a laptop-style device could make a good development board. What's the performance and battery life like compared to ARM?

RISC-V is pretty efficient even when compared to ARM, but that is mostly because it allows you to customize your hardware based on your needs. [External Link]
As such it's hard to make a good consumer device out of it.

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Quoting: benstor214

Quoting: EikeHow so? Contact some developers, many should be happy to break those alleged rules, someone breaks them, wait if valve reacts.

What rules?

Alleged rules.

forcing game publishers to sign up to pricing restrictions that dictate the lowest price games can be sold for on rival platforms.

the add-on content for games must also be purchased from Steam, restricts competition in the market.

You both question if they even exist.

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Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: elmapuli mean, why an steamdeck?

Because they'd look pretty stupid pushing the ROG Ally and its notorious problems and poor aftersales support, I guess. :tongue:

sure but why not an playstation?
their game sell better on a deck than an playstation? or its because they are promoting the fact that the game launched on steam?

Good hyptothesis, I hadn't thought of that.
"We aren't only Steam store compatible, we're Steam deck compatible"

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