Quoting: Liam DaweGives 2 or so errors in-game which you skip, as the errors are about multiplayer. Solo offline works fine.

Ka-Ching you've been tricked.
Sneakily you've been an advanced user all along.
We knew it.
You consider something working well offline if the "errors are about multi-player".
This means you can see the difference between different kinds of error messages know multi-player is online and know that not every error is destruction of your play time.
The fact that you consider it fine means that you've experienced similar issues before.

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Quoting: Ehvis

Quoting: LoudTechieThe only active protection it can offer is the extra protection flatpak offers compared to

The end of your sentence is cut off.

Wine/Proton could also provide some filesystem protection as it serves up a virtual one. Unfortunately, both wine and proton just map the whole root filesystem as a drive so anything could potentially have a peek at everything. I wish at least proton would be more restrictive in what it maps.

*snap(I wasn't certain snap also sandboxed, but wikipedia says snap does so)

Winehq would never do that for it makes a generic assumption of what will be running(office apps, games, doesn't matter).
Proton has it probably somewhere on the bottom of their priority list(security isn't as sexy as say performance and much harder).
One of the g.o.l aimed Proton forks might do it though.
The first version would probably break some "copy protections".

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Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: t3gCapcom should have gone after the streamer instead of punishing paid consumers. Just shows how old fashioned and out of touch most Japanese businesses are.

Exactly. Most companies would respond with "Oops! Sorry guys, this fella isn't associated with us." and just bar them from handling events that they sponsor (assuming that this was a Capcom-sponsored event in the first place - I don't know if it was that or a community-run one). But noooooooooo, not Capcom. :dizzy:

Quoting: LoudTechieIssues I can't predict, but Proton as a container is misleading.
Proton provides 0 containment on itself and is very clear about that.

They're designed to run in a layer of security called "user space" or as others call it ring 0.
It's the difference between root and everything else(on most systems).
Within this restricted space they're willing to let programs do and whatever they like.

They actively support some forms of debugger detection, file analysis, etc. specifically to support "copy protection".
There was an actual attempt for punk buster it failed, because of an issue even Windows had(Wine just had it a lot more extreme and since punk buster got fixed they already marked it as won't fix).
The reason why malware often fails is, because it wants to run in kernel space and Proton simply doesn't support kernel commands.
The only active protection it can offer is the extra protection flatpak offers compared to

Thankyou - that's very informative. :smile:

So, is it safe to assume that, if there's anything untoward about Capcom's software beyond them adding DRM by stealth, it wouldn't actually be able to do anything?

I might be getting older, but I'm not afraid to admit that there's things I don't know - I left Windows behind so long ago that I'm just used to the fact that Linux and other Unix-likes tend to be largely trouble-free, so this affecting software I'd bought is completely new to me. :tongue:

It wouldn't be able to do some very specific things, but it could still if it really wanted to in theory delete, read or edit your entire personal map until your machine is restarted(meaning mostly games and the steam client, since you've a dedicated steam deck).

The best indication. Proton aims to give everything that runs on it as much abilities as a standard browser or office app.
For a game this is still a lot of permissions, but it's not really acceptable malware level.

Ransomwaring your steamdeck won't work, spying on your Steam deck is possible although somewhat limited, crypto mining is possible(although really obvious), sending a duck waggling across your screen is possible(class mate once pulled this one on another) and all long term stuff can probably be turned off permanently by rebooting the device(non-sleep mode).

Had it been actually contained(like a flatpak or snap) it would fit the strict interpretation of your definition, but as you can see in the discussion surrounding the Steam development release about their lack of support for it is that this is still largely experimental technology from a usability perspective.*

*Don't get me started on ways to improve this. Doing that to me is like triggering your bomberman lore rant.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd there doesn't seem to be anything else in the wind that would make it worth all the expense of making the AI.

There is another reason it's worth it.
Few entities have the budget to do it.

Uh, yeah, and that makes it worth it how if there's no revenue associated? I was pointing out where the revenue seems to be coming from. You counter that not by pointing out that the stuff is expensive, which just makes the point that they better have some revenue coming in, but by pointing out an alternative source of revenue, and suggesting some reason they'd want that source instead rather than having both. (Except you shouldn't, because I'm right :tongue: )

Sorry. I didn't make my point clear.
Those using my reasoning intend to use their control of a market they already control to be their source of income for it, but want to protect that source of income from competition with deep learning(I realized we might be talking about different things under the same banner).
It's somewhat like buying a lock for your house. Is a lock profitable. It doesn't generate money, but it keeps others from taking what you already possess.

Well, yes, that's certainly part of it. But they're going for the part I mentioned too--I mean, why not? Sure, it could maim the internet goose that lays the golden eggs, but that's not a "next quarter" problem.

That young upstart stealing your market can come as much "next quarter" as next century. The problem isn't all these people with world shocking ideas and skills, but the problem is that even one my exist.
Having said that, I do agree that your reason is probably also on the list of legit reasons to invest in AI for these companies.

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Quoting: such

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: such

Quoting: melkemindInevitably, the "pirates" crack the DRM, so the only people DRM ends up hurting are the paying customers.

That's not quite the case anymore with Denuvo.

A. they just switched away from Denuvo.
B. Denuvo cracks still happen, but you're right it's the strongest I know of(every version of football manager up to 2023 and Hogwards Legacy have fallen).

There's been two people/groups cracking Denuvo that I know of - one was doing football games exclusively, the other has been radio silent for a bit now. Feel free to correct me on that. Still, not many bother with Denuvo.

I'm just saying digital lead us to a reality in which not all DRM gets circumvented eventually, but that narrative is so ingrained in everyone's consciousness that it's becoming actively harmful. We've lost as consumers, a long time ago.

Radio silence in her case is relative.
Produces lots of sound and only sometimes cracks, but you're right Denuvo is quite good at what it does.
Also there're some more "low tech" groups that don't attack the code itself, but some of the weaker license key schemes(Sims crack)
The thing with this harmful mindset is that it's so prevalent, because in mathematical theory it's true(all the relevant information is send to you), but math ignores the law, societal development and language.
The copyright laws combined with language barriers and the abolishing of the harsh technological restrictions on "western hostile" nations are working.
Denuvo had to send multiple people to jail, but it did work the crackers started getting cautious with it.
Also the lack of technology restrictions on "western hostile" countries means that a lot less people in legally accepting environments are interested in cracking nowadays.
Language barriers also play a role. Sometimes large drm cracking scenes based on some general bug have sprung up in nations such as China and survived for a long time without getting noticed for years.

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Quoting: PenglingWe've been discussing this on the forum, and there are several other games known to be afflicted;

Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective
Mega Man Battle Network Legacy Collection Vol. 1 & 2
Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection
Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection
Strider
Resident Evil 5

Moreover, none of these are declared on their Steam pages, which I've seen suggested elsewhere might be in breach of the law in some regions. It annoyed me to learn of this second-hand, to be honest.

My response was to uninstall for the handful of Capcom titles I've got and also remove the Proton files (one of them being the Mega Man Zero/ZX compilation, which, as above, definitely has it), because clearly I can't trust any of them now. I presume that, since Proton is basically a container of sorts, I should have no issues as a result of this? (I've never encountered this before.)

Issues I can't predict, but Proton as a container is misleading.
Proton provides 0 containment on itself and is very clear about that.

They're designed to run in a layer of security called "user space" or as others call it ring 0.
It's the difference between root and everything else(on most systems).
Within this restricted space they're willing to let programs do and whatever they like.

They actively support some forms of debugger detection, file analysis, etc. specifically to support "copy protection".
There was an actual attempt for punk buster it failed, because of an issue even Windows had(Wine just had it a lot more extreme and since punk buster got fixed they already marked it as won't fix).
The reason why malware often fails is, because it wants to run in kernel space and Proton simply doesn't support kernel commands.
The only active protection it can offer is the extra protection flatpak offers compared to

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Quoting: such

Quoting: melkemindInevitably, the "pirates" crack the DRM, so the only people DRM ends up hurting are the paying customers.

That's not quite the case anymore with Denuvo.

A. they just switched away from Denuvo.
B. Denuvo cracks still happen, but you're right it's the strongest I know of(At least every version of football manager up to 2023 and Hogwards Legacy have fallen).

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Quoting: ThibugWhat is even the point of changing the DRM years later when the game has already been pirated and later updates won't matter much?

Ooh.
I know.
A. Denuvo has a strong reputation in the industry, but maintains a subscription model causing developers to often switch away from it when a game becomes less popular.
B. Capcom just had an unfortunate clash with its modder community and wants to beef up its defenses.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd there doesn't seem to be anything else in the wind that would make it worth all the expense of making the AI.

There is another reason it's worth it.
Few entities have the budget to do it.

Uh, yeah, and that makes it worth it how if there's no revenue associated? I was pointing out where the revenue seems to be coming from. You counter that not by pointing out that the stuff is expensive, which just makes the point that they better have some revenue coming in, but by pointing out an alternative source of revenue, and suggesting some reason they'd want that source instead rather than having both. (Except you shouldn't, because I'm right :tongue: )

Sorry. I didn't make my point clear.
Those using my reasoning intend to use their control of a market they already control to be their source of income for it, but want to protect that source of income from competition with deep learning(I realized we might be talking about different things under the same banner).
It's somewhat like buying a lock for your house. Is a lock profitable. It doesn't generate money, but it keeps others from taking what you already possess.

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Quoting: GuestMaybe i'm wrong but to me what seems especially funny is how quick they went from 'non-profit' to profit-oriented.

OpenAI has never been non-profit and it still doesn't make any profit(both are true, but it sounds like paradox bear with me).
OpenAI doesn't make any profit in the sense that their expenses vastly exceed their income.
OpenAI isn't a non-profit in the sense that they have always been very clear that they wanted profit. Their biggest investor Bill Gates somewhat muddled the waters, but that isn't OpenAI's fault.

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