Quoting: Patola

Quoting: Narcotix

Quoting: Patola[...]We already do not own our games, we license them. [...]

I am reading this so often lately. But did you already look up how many games on Steam you DO own?
There's quite a huge list of DRM-free games on Steam. https://steam.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games [External Link]
Also quite some big titles on this list.

Owning the game or not has nothing to do with DRM. Every game you have is licensed, not owned. You can't do whatever you want with them, for starters you're bound by law to keep them artificially scarse (can't copy more than a quota for personal use and can't copy it to others).

Being bound by law not to do certain things with a possession doesn't mean you don't own it and certainly has nothing to do with licensing since you're bound by law, not by the license. If you own a gun, depending where you live you may bound by law to store it in certain ways, put it in a locked case when transporting it, and of course not shoot people with it. Perhaps more to the point, if I own a physical book I am bound by the exact same law not to print multiple copies; it comes up less often because it's harder to do and doesn't usually occur to people, but it applies. Yet nobody goes around saying you don't own books you buy in the bookstore. I'd actually say that it is practically impossible to own something and not have its use circumscribed by law in some way.
As to the actual licensing, sure, the game companies try stuff on. But basically, if you buy a game, you own it. Where its licensing conflicts with the law of the state you live in concerning ownership, that licensing can be, and sometimes has been, struck down in court. I strongly suspect this doctrine does not apply to things like Stadia, though.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: GuestLast I checked PC gaming itself was shrinking

Is it? I mean, at this point the majority of PC gaming involves Steam. And Steam is growing, has been fairly consistently for years. For PC gaming overall to be shrinking, everything outside Steam would have to be friggin' imploding, which doesn't seem to be the case.

It's the old tale lol:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pc-gaming-is-in-a-decline-and-deserves-to-be-2019-07-03 [External Link]

These views don't represent my own, but it's possible they could sway those management types with no PC gaming experience.

@linuxwarper, thank you for that awesome writeup :).

Glad those views don't represent yours, 'cause it seems a silly article. Someone had a vaguely reasonable take on trends in game design, and dearly wanted that to be bad for sales so that they could have some reason to suggest maybe the studios should stop doing the bad things. But it's rubbish.
Sure, a fair number of years ago few people had smartphones and fewer gamed on them. Now almost everyone has a smartphone and lots of that almost everyone games with them. So, their percentage of "the game market" has grown massively--by creating a whole new game market with a whole new stack of revenue. And since the percentages have to add up to 100, that means everyone else "shrank".
But that's a stupid measure, certainly in this case. Mobile games didn't displace immobile gaming platforms; those people the author mentions waiting for buses did not, before mobile phones, wait for buses while playing games on their desktop or their XBone. It's really a different market; combining them to make a point is misleading.
The question is, has the PC gaming market grown or shrunk--in, like, dollars? The author never mentioned that. Far as I can tell, it's fairly definitely grown quite a bit.

Also it seems a bit of a reach to be saying "The PC market is shrinking because it's been making crappy games that are influenced by the way they make games . . . on the platform that's growing spectacularly!" Uh, sure, whatever. Really, I'd be happy to be able to say that PC game sales are being hurt by the kind of crap the article's author takes aim at, but I've seen no evidence that's the case. Although the backlash against loot boxes seems to have been strong enough to shift the fashion against them, which is nice.

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Quoting: LinuxwarperWhat will happen to that growth and momentum if another propietary OS (ChromeOS) outgrows Linux? Google has the money to sell laptops (they already are) with ChromeOS installed. It could lead to another OS for Linux to compete with. With Stadia I believe Google has a strong case to gain marketshare. And that's just one service that Google has.

I'm actually hoping for ChromeOS to prosper. Oh, sure, it's not precisely Linux--but it's a lot closer than Android. It's basically Linux crippled. For Google to expand it beyond its niche, one thing they'll probably need to do is expand its capabilities by bringing more of Linux back in. It's going to be really hard for them to end up with a ChromeOS that runs things that can't be made to run in Linux. The bottom line for me is, growth in ChromeOS reduces the effectiveness of Windows lock-in and network effects, and does so with an OS that is basically Linux.
And as you note, it is currently smaller than Linux proper. It is blocked by the same lock-out barriers Linux is blocked by, and unless and until it gets a far, far larger market share its expansion is going to have to involve getting rid of them for all, not just for ChromeOS. When you're tiny and try to create lock-in, you just get whacked by the network effects of the bigger fish--you actually lock yourself out.
So looking at Stadia--sure, Stadia is potentially a tool for growing ChromeOS. But it is to the exact same extent a tool for growing Linux, and for that matter MacOS. And it's going to have to stay that way to work; they might be able to close it down and exclude other platforms if ChromeOS gets to, I dunno, 30% of the desktop. Talk to me again when we're in that kind of territory. In the mean time, Stadia is a cross-platform thing and an illustration of the kinds of tactics Google will need to use to grow ChromeOS, which are essentially the same ones proper Linux tends to use--encouraging cross-platform things so that the playing field with Windows is more level.

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Quoting: GuestLast I checked PC gaming itself was shrinking

Is it? I mean, at this point the majority of PC gaming involves Steam. And Steam is growing, has been fairly consistently for years. For PC gaming overall to be shrinking, everything outside Steam would have to be friggin' imploding, which doesn't seem to be the case.

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Quoting: CatKillerBut what it does do is force developers to learn how to make their games work on Linux with Vulkan - since that's necessary for a game to work on Stadia - and Google will provide resources to help them do that. What the developers do with that knowledge and the product they've created after that is down to the developers. Many are going to shy away from the (real or perceived) costs of supporting actual Linux versions on actual customers' hardware, but they'll all have learned how to make games without Windows and without DirectX, which has been a barrier in the past.

Beyond Vulkan, it also creates pressure for the whole developer software ecosystem to support Linux. Everything from graphics drivers to game engines have another reason to treat Linux as a first class citizen with Stadia, and Google has reason to intervene directly to make that happen. They will want the whole toolchain, wall to wall, to be competitive with any other platform. That makes life easier for developers on Linux even if they have nothing to do with Stadia.

Which is not to say that I have no qualms about the idea of games moving to a streaming service model. I'm distinctly unenthused about that concept. I'm hoping Stadia does reasonably well, well enough to create those benefits, but not too well.

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Quoting: XpanderNice. Nvidia seems to be on fire with the vulkan beta drivers lately.

Mm, heat sinks not good enough, huh? Pity.

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Quoting: rustybroomhandle

Quoting: Liam DaweWhere did you get that number? Sounds like you're making it up, I know for a fact there's more than 12K people on Stadia. Destiny 2 alone saw over 30K players online at once back in April in it. Not blindly sticking up for it at all, just a note that spreading false info helps no one.

I did a Google search and 11.5k the number that came up. Hmmm, looking again that's a figure from December. Destiny 2 briefly peaked at 36K during a free trial, I see. Well, now with some revised numbers, my point still stands. Publishers are okay supporting this very niche thing, but not our niche thing.

To be fair, presumably they anticipate growth. They put some weight behind Steam Machines, too, until they fizzled.

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: LinuxwarperIs there a single game on Stadia, that can be played locally, that supports Linux? No (?).

Well no, you don't play them locally, it's game streaming.

I believe he was saying there is no duplication--that there are no games on Stadia which could already be played natively the normal way. Not sure if it's true, but I think that's what was being said.

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Quoting: LinuxwarperIt's very hard for me to use it. Google doesn't seem to care about desktop Linux and they have bought exclusives. The fact they support Linux could be because it wasn't hard to do so and because it's also reliant on users.

I'd be willing to bet they use Linux for the servers because, first, Linux servers are more efficient, and second, they don't have to worry about licensing (and, third, with open source they can tweak 'em as they need, and fourth Google know all about running Linux servers because they already use them for most of their other stuff for the other three reasons). Savings mount up when you've got huge numbers of servers; it wouldn't have made economic sense to use Windows.
I get the impression Windows licensing is fairly cheap right now, but you never know when they'll try to get more revenue through that channel; what would Google do if MS realize their fond dream of going subscription-based? And MS is Google's competitor; no need to hand them a rug to pull out from under you.
But no, it's not like they give a damn about Linux as used outside of Google, and certainly they don't care a bean for the Linux desktop.

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Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Desum

Quoting: Cyril

Quoting: DesumWe'll see how European socialism fares when the United States goes into decline and ceases to be the friendly global hegemon. Y'know, when they'll have to pay for all of their own defense budget.

United States, friendly? OK now I know I really can't take you seriously, whathever you say about countries being socialist or not, this is top notch.
But you're right on one thing for sure, the United States are in decline, and when this day comes up it won't be a bad thing. So many countries are so tied, economically and politically, to the USA that's pretty slavery.

I won't reply on this thread again, at least I shouldn't.

You didn't say anything of substance this time. How are you going to keep that NHS when you also have to pay three times as much for your military as you do now?

What, for fear the eeevil Russkies will invade? They have neither the motive nor the capability. Europe and Great Britain have no need to be defended against anyone in particular.
Currently, the main thing the US is defending Europe against is the ability to have lucrative trade ties with countries the US disapproves of.

You honestly think you'll never need to ramp up your military again... That's both cute and sad.

Insisting that everyone should cripple their economies out of vague hypothetical future fear is sad, but not cute.

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