Quoting: manus76And with a quote from Adam Smith we might summarise the whole discussion about Apple: '...that I have fresh bread and rolls every morning is not because of the baker's goodwill, it's because of his greed' (or something to that effect, quoted from a failing memory).
I suggest we leave it at that and do not open this usual can of worms, it might turn too political and heated.

Here's another relevant quote from Adam Smith:

People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.

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Quoting: manus76

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: manus76So should Apple (and Microsoft) just say: 'Listen guys, we abandon Metal (or DX11/12 in the case of MS) and support Vulkan. That means if you primiarily game you won't need to use our OS, and hardware either, just go with linux'. Does that make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing?

Well, the theory of capitalist competition is that people use one product over another because it works better, has nicer features, is cheaper and whatnot. That's what's supposed to be good about it--that this competition stuff will result in good cheap products. If that's not how capitalism really works I don't have a duty to defend its dysfunction. Traditionally the supposed remedy was laws enforcing real competition and disallowing various kinds of anticompetitive behaviour--including, but not limited to, antitrust laws. Again, if the political climate is such that passing or enforcing such laws is impossible, then that's how it is--but if there ought to be a law, then surely one can at least complain.
And if capitalism never actually does the stuff it's supposed to do, if it doesn't "make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing" as actual competition by creating better products rather than by erecting barriers to entry, that doesn't mean I should rearrange my notions of what's OK to include stuff that's harmful, it means I should start questioning the virtues of a system that does not work as advertised.

Not a personal attack, more an admission of my own failing (and probably dementia): even though I studied English and thought I was pretty competent at it, I haven't understood anything above.

Maybe you're used to assuming that there doesn't have to be a reason for markets to be good, they just are by definition, and so someone talking different seems incoherent? But the original theorists of capital, like Adam Smith and Ricardo and so forth, didn't treat capitalism and markets as ends in themselves, but as means to an end. They were justified to the extent that they were useful, to actual people--or could be made, by government regulation or social custom, to be so. If you can assimilate that idea, I think my comment is more or less understandable.

(Side note: It is actually often the case that a lot of people speaking ill of a corporation for antisocial behaviour has produced some changes to the corporation's behaviour. I wouldn't expect it to work in the case of Apple, since their misdeeds are relatively subtle and require some knowledge to understand. But it's not like getting mad at companies is completely useless--to the contrary, they tend to consider their public image very important, whatever their private amorality.)

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Quoting: manus76So should Apple (and Microsoft) just say: 'Listen guys, we abandon Metal (or DX11/12 in the case of MS) and support Vulkan. That means if you primiarily game you won't need to use our OS, and hardware either, just go with linux'. Does that make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing?

Well, the theory of capitalist competition is that people use one product over another because it works better, has nicer features, is cheaper and whatnot. That's what's supposed to be good about it--that this competition stuff will result in good cheap products. If that's not how capitalism really works I don't have a duty to defend its dysfunction. Traditionally the supposed remedy was laws enforcing real competition and disallowing various kinds of anticompetitive behaviour--including, but not limited to, antitrust laws. Again, if the political climate is such that passing or enforcing such laws is impossible, then that's how it is--but if there ought to be a law, then surely one can at least complain.
And if capitalism never actually does the stuff it's supposed to do, if it doesn't "make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing" as actual competition by creating better products rather than by erecting barriers to entry, that doesn't mean I should rearrange my notions of what's OK to include stuff that's harmful, it means I should start questioning the virtues of a system that does not work as advertised.

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Quoting: razing32Is this made by the same people that made Kingdom of Loathing ?

Description says "set in the wild west of the Kingdom of Loathing universe" so I would suspect so.

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If Adobe didn't seem to hate Linux we'd be a lot better off.

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Quoting: calfretShould users expect everything to work? No, of course not. Should Linux users and developers do their best to make things work? Yes, and I see evidence everyday of that happening. Every day or two a new release comes out that fixes some kind of compatibility issue somewhere. It would be smart to focus on the big issues first though. It's great that shadows now work finally on Game XYZ part 2. Now can we get the most common peripherals that millions of users own working properly?

Except as near as I understand from the factual bits of the discussion, they do. That is, the problem cited is not that Xbox controllers don't work under Linux, it's that Xbox controllers don't work in Wine for certain games whose Wine support is experimental, unless you do some fiddling to get some experimental thingie that fixes it to work. That would seem to come under the "shadows not working on Game XYZ part 2" category.

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Quoting: Pompesdesky

Quoting: GuestSince capitalism is the current global economic system it is fitting that the OS's of large corporations takes the largest market share. It is thus impossible for community-driven OS's to take up larger share than what is shown in the statistics, I think.

In a pure socialist economy, all software would be open source and have a community-based development.

US citizen ?

I don't get how the OS market share would relate so much on politics. In a capitalist market if a product is good it would be adopted so an open source software could compete with a closed source one as long as it offers a good service. Also Linux is not only community driven, it is also backed by large corporations. And go apply your logic to the server side of computing, where's the largest market share of the said large corporation ? See, no need for evil communism for Linux to succeed :D

I, personally, would be happy to see a bit of that evil communism ;) (if by that you mean any and all non-capitalist stuff), but I do agree that it's perfectly possible for open source software to succeed under capitalism; as you say, we know this because plenty of it does. The desktop situation is a matter of timing and the particular players and their particular strengths and interests. If, say, Linux had started development a little earlier, or some strong competitor to Microsoft had emerged--say a ruthless, ambitious IBM executive had been in charge of OS/2 and played hardball with MS--things might have been quite different.

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Quoting: ColomboIt still lacks tons of content, especially in the midgame. There isn't really that much to do, only useless clicking when you are trying to manage stuff, that should have been automated in the first place.

Part of the problem is the insistence on "pure" real time. I wish there was a sort of "skip time to the next alert" button.

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Quoting: Duckeenie

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: manus76Why has this thread turned into 'Apple is an evil corporation' diatribe? I thought it was about Linux gaming and I can't recall seeing anyone putting a gun to people's heads, forcing them to buy an Apple product (or Microsoft's for that matter). At least not where I live.

Lots of bad things happen in this world without anyone putting a gun to anyone's head. People's children starve in the streets without anyone having put a gun to anyone's head. Nestle executives conspired to have third world babies die of disease without putting guns to anyone's head. The idea that if something happens subtly it didn't really happen is pernicious and helps a lot of people get away with a lot of really bad stuff.

Of course those things are true but why not use the technology industry as an example. Too contentious? Anybody here willing to boycott cobalt or graphite in the interest of saving lives? Who here REALLY wants to live with the consequences of making a stand against corporate abuse of human rights? The point is, many people seem to take on causes for no other reason than to facilitate their need to compete. Hence the constant stream of Microsoft and Apple comments on Linux forums.

Sure, if we weren't Linux users, or if Microsoft and Apple weren't making it more difficult to be Linux users, we doubtless wouldn't criticize them as much for being evil. Does that make it unfair to tell the truth about them? Linux is perhaps unusual in not being evil. Does that make it dirty pool to point out the difference? Really, we shouldn't point out that other people are doing lots of stuff to fuck everything up, because it might be rude and although it's true it might be to our advantage and perish the thought we take our own side? Whaaaa??? So, if someone's in a fight with you, do you tie both hands behind your back and offer up your chin, you know, just to be polite?

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: manus76Oh it's simple: as i said the original question was why so much Apple bashing as if it had tremendous impact on the state of linux gaming. Does it?
Apple is a company and it will do all it can to earn money, maybe having an extra API specifically tailored for your hardware brings money. If one wants to challenge Apple on that front they need a company too, linux isn't one.

Because Apple is one of the worst cases of lock-in proponents. Metal is the example here. You apparently agree. If you don't understand why it deserves criticism, then I guess you think damage to the industry progress is good and falls into "do what you can to earn money". That's not the first time someone tries to justify such crooked practice.

And if you just don't get why Apple is criticized, and not other lock-in proponents like MS, Sony and etc. it's because the conversation was about Apple above. Of course all of them deserve this criticism.

Part of it is also that typically in Linux circles nobody goes around trying to say Microsoft is actually OK and their lock-in was never intended to conspire against anybody and etc., because we all know better. So it doesn't come up. If someone were to make such a fatuous argument, it would certainly be disputed vociferously.

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