Quoting: Guest

Quoting: EhvisSo there goes that plan to play the first one before this comes out. :D

Well it is a prequel, so maybe you can start with this one anyway. I assume that's probably okay to do and wouldn't have spoilers or be too confusing but I'm not sure.

They actually INTENDED you to play them in the given, released, order. So...while you could play them in reverse order, it's probably not the experience intended.

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Quoting: LeopardSteamPlay part is the truth.

SteamPlay is there for publishers , devs who never cared about Linux in anyform.

Because they won't care with that market share , AAA's or other games they published will only strengthen Windows platform. That is where SteamPlay aims to break.

When we turn into a profitable market , things will be much more better and there will be no need for SteamPlay except backlog games.

THIS.

(Speaking as one of the Devs that DOES care, mind...)

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: svartalfFor a browser stat...yeah. The problem begins with a Wine capable game. I bought with Windows, I downloaded it with Windows.

But...I run it on Linux.

So don't do that. Download and buy from Linux.

Sigh. I can't help you and you're part of the problem, to be blunt.

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And before you remark...most browsers let you change your user agent string...hell, they even PROVIDE you plugins and tools to do with as enhancements to the browser...

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/user-agent-switcher/ [External Link]

Just one reason, in concrete, that it's not useful like you think it is.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: svartalfSeriously, this is how GoG is doing that?

According to GOG at least. I have no way of verifying it.

See here:

* https://github.com/Sude-/lgogdownloader/issues/135 [External Link]

* https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/8unssh/is_there_any_way_to_indicate_my_os_when_buying/e1h5pfk/ [External Link]

Using user agent is a common practice to determine OS. I don't see why you view it as a problem.

For a browser stat...yeah. The problem begins with a Wine capable game. I bought with Windows, I downloaded it with Windows.

But...I run it on Linux. You didn't GET the Linux number. WOULDN'T.

The browser isn't what runs the game and it's a blindingly STUPID way to get that usage stat.

Here's another example of how it's so very, very wrong.

I have bought the game on Windows. I now download it for Windows, Linux, and OSX.

But I ran it only on Linux. How do you know that the double-tap for Windows there is valid? Oh, wait, you don't. How do you know that the OSX one is valid? Oh, that's right...again...

And yet another example.

Because of issues with other sites I work with, I've changed my User Agent to be the WINDOWS version of Mozilla instead of the Linux one. I buy, I download. WHICH gets logged?

This doesn't work and if you can't comprehend this...I can't help you. Seriously, I can't and there's nobody else that can either.

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Quoting: Shmerl1. You buy a Windows game on GOG's site using Firefox on Linux. Your user agent is logged and GOG stores the stat with "purchased from Linux" +1 for that game.

2. You download the game using lgogdownloader or same Firefox from Linux. Your user agent is again logged and GOG stores the stat with "downloaded from Linux" +1 for that game.

This is so wrong it's entertaining- this presumes you're using the local client and that you've not altered user agent strings.

Seriously, this is how GoG is doing that? My estimation of them just dropped a smidge because of that. (Hint: It's not even remotely a good way to do this sort of thing)

This much was explained by actual GOG Linux team developers. Are you saying there is no backwards flow of this info to developers and publishers?

It's useless information, to be **BRUTALLY** blunt.

What if I download it on Windows (Very possible) and play it on both Windows and Linux, or all three. If you don't think this could possibly happen, you're gravely mistaken. With the model there, that Windows purchase still counted as one.

With a client running Proton, for example, Valve KNOWS it was a Linux run/usage. GoG hasn't a single clue ONE what is being ran for what OS. NONE. They only have what you downloaded it with, which might/might not be the same.

With those metrics, I'd disregard every number GoG hands me because they've no concept, no clue what's really being done other than how it was "purchased" and number of downloads don't get you useful info. iD counted it as SKU sales to whichever OS on Q3:A and there was a 3 week delay for the box sets from Loki because of a logistics f-up. People bought Windows copies and "patched" them to run on Linux. SO...Loki owed 250k in royalties for things not sold, but there was about that same number of Linux titles. iD didn't care- because downloads don't count...only sales or actual direct usage stats like Valve got...and iD didn't get usages because their framework wasn't set UP for it.

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Quoting: legluondunetWhat is a dev/editor don't want his game to be playable on Linux? Could he ask Valve to remove SteamPlay compatibility to his game? This could be for several reasons:
- the game does not work well with SteamPlay and he fears that this gives a bad image to his game
- Microsoft or EA doesn't want theirs games could be played on another platform than Windows
- Dev/Editor fears than this give them more work for support.

Yeah, you could have them do that and for that reason- but Valve will be recalcitrant to remove it from the list and you can **ALWAYS** turn off the bars. They left that option open and it's with that there that I'm going to be putzing with a few things this weekend. X-D

As for EA...yeah, they might be one to seek that.

Microsoft? The answer there might surprise most on here. They're going to be inclined to insist upon it working correctly for that title- but not tell them no if it does. They won't care one way or another- it's another sale. They still see it for their purposes as a Windows SKU on their accounting of things.

Dev/Editor/Publisher being concerned- maybe. I can tell you, though, Valve's pushing for SOME sort of SteamOS support at acceptable levels if you're being published on the platform, if at all possible. So, that's going to be a point of contention now that the network effect works in Valve's favor there. If you've got code that doesn't work right in Proton, it could be said that your code is potentially not stable on the Windows side of things, to be blunt. You don't want to go there and you'll try, at least, to sort it out.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: svartalfWINE, by itself, won't give you figures, though, for the stuff that works- they still see Windows SKU's being bought. Period. End of story.

Can you elaborate please? Do stores share platform stats with developers and publishers? For instance, GOG clearly collect statistics based on the user agent, so even if you buy something with intent to play in Wine, but do the actual purchase and downloading from Linux (with proper user agent), GOG statistics will register that fact. Do you mean that info is never relayed to developers and that's why they see it as Windows sale?

Right now, if you're using WINE, not with a wrapper framework like GoG is using or Proton like Valve is, you have no feedback- even the community provided installers tell the studios NOTHING. You bought a Windows SKU, so it gets LOGGED as one. That user agent in GoG's part lets you track their stuff. Valve has none and you largely have to run, prior to this, as a Windows user for titles that ran right in WINE because you had to run STEAM in WINE to play most of those titles. With Proton, that changed in the same manner GoG is working on trying to get real metrics.

If you don't use either? You're just a Windows SKU purchaser like all the Windows users on anything else under WINE.

Also, if you're not using GoG's agent and just raw-installing stuff (which is still an option...) then you're in that aforementioned space of WINE without tracking.

As for the stores sharing tracking stats? Those are typically public- they share metrics for genres, etc. so that the publishers know what is/isn't making money. They know, typically, whether a Windows SKU is selling over an OSX or Linux one, where there are actual SKUs.

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Quoting: GuestUntil game devs and/or Valve officially support Proton/Wine releases, it's not safe and doesn't come with those rights, so using it only as a backwards compatibility tool is what we should do. We should encourage developers to release Proton/Wine bottles if this path is the easiest path out of all the other ones available while still providing a bug-free well-performing Linux release. Let's also not forget about all the non-Steam sources of games that could carry such whatever-wrapped/bottled releases, such as GOG.

Considering that it's the distribution/e-pub publisher for this stuff, I think you're going to find that it's supported in some manner. They already said that a Proton ran title will explicitly count as the respective OSX or Linux run when you launch for metrics against the Steam ecosystem. There's your first hint that it's not QUITE like just running under WINE in the first place. I know for a fact that there's a bit of a BIG push for SteamOS/Linux support from Valve, along with one or two other rather large players in the Industry for Linux specific support (and not Proton) in the last year. I know I'm looking at some things because of those pushes.

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Here's a Game Porter's (*waves hand*) take on this.

BRING IT.

WINE by itself is an issue. The problem with part (but not all) of Feral's and other's "ports" has been that they took a similar route that just didn't play nice at least initially.

It was for this reason that we realistically didn't get Witcher 3. There's several others that ended up costing us. The reality is that you're going to, for a while, have companies look at what needs to be done and balk because they don't see a market there.

I know better.

We ALL know better.

But they don't. Therein lies the rub. WINE, by itself, won't give you figures, though, for the stuff that works- they still see Windows SKU's being bought. Period. End of story.

That doesn't help there. It didn't help me. Doesn't help Icculus. Raises costs for the work in question, etc. for all players, Feral Interactive included. Fortunately for some (Myself, Ryan, Feral...) we're still getting traction (Yes...can't say more...under NDA right now...)- but we're still struggling at getting deals when we shouldn't be. Seriously.

Using WINE without feedback to studios? Bad mojo. Until you have some feedback that lets the studio know you're talking Linux or OSX for a title running in that environment. Professionally? I'd love to do away with that abstraction layer- because you ARE emulating to a point. There is a PRICE for that in performance, stability, etc. that will lag behind the Windows game or the title that is properly ported. Some of that got easier. But if you're a studio without chops in Linux or OSX...you either have to hire someone as a direct or consultant (*waves hand*) to make that happen. That costs something.

Without feedback and numbers...how do you justify that expense? Some do by way of John Carmack's old thinking before ZeniMax bought iD out. Your code will be cleaner, tighter. Guaranteed. It's why he did that for the longest time. He got disillusioned, though, from the debacle with Loki Games- which was as much iD's own doing as Loki's there on Quake3:Arena.

Having said all of this...this is actually a bit of an opportunity to upsell our OS. Yes. It will register as a Linux play regardless if you're using Proton or Native titles. Guess what that does for numbers? If it works nearly as well (and my understanding a lot of it does right now for this...) as the Windows setup, you'll get takers leaving Windows forever. Heard as much from people on G+ and Facebook when this got announced. If you have a 10% margin of the market approximately instead of the 1-2% that Steam shows (mainly because of the lower numbers of available titles to run...) then you get studios seeing that magic number that they start contemplating doing their own work or hiring the likes of myself to help them DO it for their games.

Yeah, it "costs" me titles. Big whoop-de-f'ing-do. It'll ultimately get me stuff that'd never have happened before because those "lost" titles were never going to happen in the first place.

Whether this is a win or not remains to be seen- but it's not the horrible thing some make it out to be.

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