Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.
You're behaviour is terrible. You're trying to call people out on something clearly intended with humour, while stating that a CoC will be used to call people out for social justice reasons. That's really hypocritical of you.
RMS is staying out of _this_ CoC discussion. So you're statement is flawed in that regard. That's from RMS himself.

Who is Richard Spencer? No idea myself. I guess someone unpleasant. But your statement "to promote his views in the open source community" does not apply to Coraline. She wrote a Code of Conduct. Obviously others are finding it reasonable. She's not forcing it upon anyone - she has no power to do so. Even if she tried to use some dubious wording, the TAB has authority and can say "that's not in the spirit of the CoC as the kernel has adopted it". So unless Coraline holds power over the TAB, which she does not, then her views are indeed irrelevant. And if the TAB holds the same views, then again her views are moot because the TAB would already be doing what you fear (which they are not).

You know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I have not linked ANY Twitter posts so far. What are you talking about.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: baccilusThat is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: DolusThe problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me.

Why would you ever discuss your romantic preferences in the context of a software project? I don't see how it could ever be relevant. This really isn't that hard. The document doesn't care what you do on your own time.

People are being attacked for what they say on social media.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: JoyfulDarterWhat do completely unsourced claims about economics have to do with anything? Really interesting how you had to put the caveat "except in the US" considering Marvel's comic branch is experiencing some incredibly low sales numbers.

Unsourced so I guess you're too lazy to check "comics industry revenue in country X" on google ...
Again both industries all over the world rake in more money than ever but suuuurrrrrreeee being a bit more inclusive ruins everything ...

You are not seriously trying to lump Manga in with comics, are you? Manga is doing well because it has not been politically cowed to a particular world view.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: baccilusThat is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary. Say that I say I don't want to date a particular kind of person because they just don't 'do it' for me. A lot of people seem to think that's hate speech.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: GuestWhere? I'm not seeing it. Are you referring to twitter, where there's no call to have someone removed? I see an example about what to do with reporting CoC violations, and actually someone who is trying to say that the CoC is not proper in the current form (precisely because it lacks clear guidelines about what do when the people you should report it to, are the ones you believe are violating it).

If you're referring to something else, can you please point me to it? Again, I'm not seeing anyone actually call for someone to be stopped from contributing.

Posting accurate stats on different types of sexual abuse SEVEN years ago is a COC violation, is it?

I'm sorry, you appear to be reading something other than what I wrote. Allow me to be more clear: you stated that there were now witch hunts to have people removed from contributing to the kernel, because they could now use the CoC for that purpose.

I'm saying they are not. I believe you are referring to something on twitter, and the link I believe you are referring to was a discussion (though it doesn't seem to be quite that polite) about the CoC being improper. No calls to have anyone stopped from contributing were actually in there, so...no witch hunt in that link.

Did you read the posts, it's sounding like you didn't.

I'm asking you to provide the link where it does show that someone is now being asked to "go away" and using the CoC to back that up.

Nope. The Twitter post is a former kernel maintainer (who still has connections with current maintainers) pointing out something a contributor posted seven years ago about rape statistics. And it's very interesting when you look at what Theo Ts'o works on. Drumming him out opens the door to Intel to get their hardware based randomization into the kernel, which will all but certainly be a back door.

So...no witch hunt then? No asking to have anyone stopped from contributing? Because that's exactly what you said was happening. And if it's not, then it kind of doesn't do much to backup anything else you're saying. You see, I read that twitter as someone using a personal example to showcase a problem with the CoC. Obviously there's bad blood in there, but it doesn't alter the main point. And whether you're trying to now go after that someone is also irrelevant: the point is that there are no calls to have anyone blocked.

I must admit, it actually looks like you are on a personal witch hunt. I am not suggesting you are doing so intentionally, only that it has such an appearance. I do, however, suggest you provide proper backup information to further contribute to this conversation, or else you will not get any points you're trying to make be taken seriously.

Did you not read the green hair's posts? If you did and you're saying this, you're being disingenuous.

I'm stating that you were factually wrong. Your attempts to side track from that by introducing your own personal vendetta against someone only weaken your position further.

And make you exactly what you're blaming others of being.

Personal vendetta? I've never interacted with this person. And I'm not citing any rules they've broken to get them into hot water. I DO, however, see them doing REAL harm to people making real contributions to Linux. And pardon me for not wanting Linux to end up like FreeBSD. In a death spiral.

Your language about them has been less than friendly. About someone you've never met. Who has done nothing you've described. To try validate some viewpoint that is not the current situation, and is highly unlikely to be.

And? So I'm not nice? That doesn't make me a nazi. It doesn't make me a bigot. I never even commented on anything of that nature. But out came THAT accusation. Kinda fascistic behavior there.

Again we're not saying you are a facist but look maybe using a shaekspirian quote will suit you better ...
"The lady DOTH protest too much"
In other words right now you're so heated and your choice of words is so poor that indeed you make yourself SOUND like a facist indeed.
So maybe take a break go breathe outside and come back to us once you're able to articulate your point of view in a detailed manner that doesn't leave any room for ambiguity at all ...

Ah, so you're accusing me without actually accusing me. "I'm not saying he beats his wife, but...".

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: DolusSo this is what the GoL community is? People that will accuse you of being a Nazi (or what passes for one these days) for not going along with what they are pushing politically. Well, if that's the way you want it...

No, see, that person has a name, and it's not "the GOL community". If you feel they're not adhering to GOL's rules, you can always report them. That's how this works.

Is accusing someone of a crime (which being a nazi is where I live) against the rules?

View this comment - View article - View full comments