Quoting: silmethI’d rather have people not fear trying to contribute to Linux.

People who have the wrong opinion now have to fear contributing. ESR would be drummed out of kernel development over this COC.

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Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: anewsonPro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Oh? The Linux maintainer's were wont to harass people for stats they posted on social media? More than half a decade ago at that? This "everything is ok" and "this is not a big deal" crap rings hollow. People ARE leaving Linux over this.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: DolusAddress this: https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1042769399596437504 [External Link]

So Sharp is stirring up controversy over Tso and here you are stirring up controversy over Sharp.

Lets cut to the chase, and not make this about Tso, Sharp or anyone else. Here's a thought experiment: would you rather have the Linux kernel built by despicable people, and stick your head in the sand about them, or would you rather have a bit of accountability, and possibly have the kernel suffer as a result?

Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I try not to stick my head in the sand about anything. People should hold Apple and Samsung accountable for Chinese worker suicide rates at Foxconn. People should boycott Starbucks and Amazon in the UK because they offshore their taxes. And people should have the opportunity to address despicable behaviour in those contributing to the kernel.

To be clear - "address", not "insta-ban". It's a process.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans conducting witch hunts for things people posted SEVEN years ago. Shame on you for trying to justify this.

I must have missed there news - a CoC got introduced and people are now witch hunting to have people not be able to contribute to the Linux kernel? I sure can't find that happening, but perhaps you can provide links.

I already did.

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: DolusAddress this: https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1042769399596437504 [External Link]

So Sharp is stirring up controversy over Tso and here you are stirring up controversy over Sharp.

Lets cut to the chase, and not make this about Tso, Sharp or anyone else. Here's a thought experiment: would you rather have the Linux kernel built by despicable people, and stick your head in the sand about them, or would you rather have a bit of accountability, and possibly have the kernel suffer as a result?

Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I try not to stick my head in the sand about anything. People should hold Apple and Samsung accountable for Chinese worker suicide rates at Foxconn. People should boycott Starbucks and Amazon in the UK because they offshore their taxes. And people should have the opportunity to address despicable behaviour in those contributing to the kernel.

To be clear - "address", not "insta-ban". It's a process.

Here, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans conducting witch hunts for things people posted SEVEN years ago. Shame on anyone trying to justify this.

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Quoting: TheSyldatSo sorry hate to break it to you but from where I am they are doing better than ever...

Then you're in la-la land. FreeBSD is falling like a rock, and it'll drag everything based off of it down with it.

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Quoting: TheSyldat

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: scainea) there's no corporate oversight here. It's the kernel, business as usual. Proxies? Please, give the conspiracy theories a rest. No-one is "shoving" anything down anyone's throats.
b) many, many other projects have a CoC. It was long overdue for the kernel.
c) being the underdog doesn't mean you get to shit on people because of a lack of CoC. Having respect should be an absolute minimum for any project, open-source or otherwise.
d) yes, it will do good in the long term, once the dust settles. This is like Ubuntu's CoC all over again.

Oh yes, and the FreeBSD COC has done wonders for that project, hasn't it? Oh, wait, no. Contributions are down and they're getting half of what they were receiving in donations last year.

Yeah and that has nothing to do with the fact that True OS has become a thing and that most of the biggest industrials wanting to use BSD in certain case scenarios deccided to put their cash in TrueOS instead noooo, it has everything to do with COC ....
Gimme a break ...

Have you been watching TrueOS? It no longer even ships with a GUI; it's just FreeBSD with some newer packages by default. And from the look of it, it's not getting all that much in donations anymore either.

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Quoting: Arehandoro

Quoting: liamdaweHappy for people to discuss such stuff, but please do remember GOL is a sanctuary for everyone to be involved. I don't want to see any hateful speech directed at any groups here please, no stupid snide remarks either about gender or anything.

That comment sounds like a CoC to me :P

P.S: I agree with your comment, just trying to lower down the tension.

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: scainelike every CoC out there, to ensure that you get plenty of opportunity to change your ways. To encourage you to be respectful.

At the risk of sounding contrarian, I would rather be in a place where people can be disrespectful yet honest with each other and with themselves than in a place which polices what they can say. Even if it is uncomfortable. Although I understand why such an atmosphere wouldn't be for everyone.

I wonder what kind of disrespect does someone need to express to a kernel patcher/maintainer/whatever aside of their coding capabilities?

The COC goes for what you say outside of the project too, apparently. Check the link I just posted. The witch hunts have begun.

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: scainelike every CoC out there, to ensure that you get plenty of opportunity to change your ways. To encourage you to be respectful.

At the risk of sounding contrarian, I would rather be in a place where people can be disrespectful yet honest with each other and with themselves than in a place which polices what they can say. Even if it is uncomfortable. Although I understand why such an atmosphere wouldn't be for everyone.

Happily, I think you're in a minority. And oddly, given your position, your reply to me was incredibly respectful: "at the risk of sounding contrarian <I respectfully disagree>".

A CoC won't prevent you saying things that are uncomfortable. They'll stop you saying things that are abusive, harmful, personal attacks. And as I keep saying, the people who want this are the same people who, in the past, could make such attacks on a whim, with no repercussion.

Anyone here use Gnome? Do you hate their CoC [External Link]? How about Ubuntu [External Link]? Anyone still running X.org [External Link]? You more of a Wayland [External Link] fan? KDE [External Link] float your boat?

Honestly, I'm sick of talking about this. The scaremongering and political agenda behind the "anti-SJW" movement is too depressing for words.

Address this: https://twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1042769399596437504 [External Link]

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Quoting: ArehandoroLet me tell you something, I landed on Linux because it was political all along. And I like it this way.

"Linux" was never political even about software freedom, that was the FSF's shtick.

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Quoting: scainea) there's no corporate oversight here. It's the kernel, business as usual. Proxies? Please, give the conspiracy theories a rest. No-one is "shoving" anything down anyone's throats.
b) many, many other projects have a CoC. It was long overdue for the kernel.
c) being the underdog doesn't mean you get to shit on people because of a lack of CoC. Having respect should be an absolute minimum for any project, open-source or otherwise.
d) yes, it will do good in the long term, once the dust settles. This is like Ubuntu's CoC all over again.

Oh yes, and the FreeBSD COC has done wonders for that project, hasn't it? Oh, wait, no. Contributions are down and they're getting half of what they were receiving in donations last year.

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