Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jensIt would have been a lot more polite if you would have at least acknowledged jaycee's experience. Instead you completely ignored what he said in your direct response and just posted a general essay.

He was answering to my point, not I to his. However, saying that open development "doesn't necessarily help at all" because it doesn't guarantee fast bug fixing was not the topic I was talking about. How fast something is fixed doesn't depend on it.

You really don't like it to give in right ;)

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Quoting: omer666

Quoting: jens

Quoting: GuestAnyway, the point was responsiveness of bug reporting. You claimed that Mesa is superior because it's public. As i've just demonstrated, this is not necessarily true.

He wont see your point due to his unconditional love for Open Source and FOSS in general.

Let me argue that you don't see his point either just because of how you expect him to think. Just because someone has got convictions that you don't share doesn't mean he's always wrong.

Don't worry, I understand his point of view...
Did I said somewhere that @Shmerl is _always_ wrong? He seems an intelligent user and certainly has a good factual knowledge. I don't agree with him on certain points and I guess that I have a different style of communication, though I don't imply (at least I try to) anywhere that he is always wrong and I'm always right.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jens@jaycee wrote a concrete example where cooperate support worked better for him than FOSS support.

For him, but not for others who had no idea about his bug report, and didn't know whether it was fixed, whether there are workarounds or the bug will be around forever. How would they know, since the whole bug reporting process isn't public? Many probably filed multiple duplicate bug reports for the same problem because of it, wasting theirs and others' time.

So there was nothing to demonstrate how open development is not better than closed one for these matters that I listed above. Whether some bug is fixed faster or slower is a completely separate topic. Others brought above examples of bugs that Nvidia didn't fix for years.

It would have been a lot more polite if you would have at least acknowledged jaycee's experience. Instead you completely ignored what he said in your direct response and just posted a general essay. This gives the impression that you didn't hear/read at all what he said.

Try something like this the next time:
"Nice to read that NVidia directly responded to your requests and that their responses helped you to go on. That said, this style of support completely hides any tracking for others... "
I guess you get my idea. The actual message from your side would be identical _and_ it would be a conversation where both sides see and respect each other.

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Quoting: Guest^ You meant corporate support, right?

Corrected, thanks a lot. ;)

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jensHe wont see your point due to his unconditional love for Open Source and FOSS in general.

This point is not about attitude towards FOSS. That's just how open development operates, bugs are open and you can track progress (unlike blob, closed driven development as can be expected). It doesn't equal a guarantee that your bug will magically get higher priority than otherwise. However, since Mesa developers asked to make a special page just for games, @jaycee can go ahead and use it, before complaining.

@jaycee wrote a concrete example where coperate support worked better for him than FOSS support. You tell him that his experience is wrong and bring up arguments that FOSS support is always superior.

My conclusion, that you have just confirmed:
You don't see his point due to a blind spot in your thinking. Alternatively, you are simply to stubborn to admit that coperate support can have its advantages too (*). ;)

* Which does not exclude advantages of FOSS support. It is not black or white. Both models have their pros and cons. None is perfect.

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Quoting: GuestAnyway, the point was responsiveness of bug reporting. You claimed that Mesa is superior because it's public. As i've just demonstrated, this is not necessarily true.

He wont see your point due to his unconditional love for Open Source and FOSS in general.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: 14AMD GPU experience on Linux isn't attractive.

It's pretty smooth these days for games. And way more attractive than Nvidia integration wise.

Mentioning your less favorite vendor will only start another useless flame war. You could instead try to _only_ point our how happy your are with your choice without any side snitching.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: LeopardNo , it is not. There are many people out who use Windows partition for only Photoshop like programs and gaming on Linux partition and buying Linux only games.

So ; Wine users are mostly much more worse than dual booters.

So, we'll disagree. As long as you dualboot, I also don't see your criticism of Wine as valid even according to your approach. Start with replacing dualbooting with Wine for everything that you have exclusively on Windows, and ditching everything that doesn't work otherwise. Then you can start criticizing Wine as something worse than native approach. Otherwise you are losing forest behind the trees.

Sorry, your discussed quite well till now, but this is just nonsense ;). There are valid reason for dual booting and valid reasons for wine. Both usages should be debatable without excluding opinions due to usage of one or the other.

PS: According to his profile @Leopard does not dual boot ;)
PPS: Just to be sure, me neither :)

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Quoting: Xpanderi think wine also helps with growing linux market share. I mean how many people ask for "I want to switch to linux, but i play this or that game, will it work on linux?" if those said games work good enough a person can try out Linux and probably will buy some native games as well, while growing the Linux market.

Its the chicken-egg problem anyway, we need more users to get somewhere and wine can help with that.

edit: one good example is most of the blizzard games. Thousands of Linux users play them with the help of wine, they can just use it and play their favorite WoW, Diablo or Heartstone while still being on Linux and buying some native linux games, otherwise they would be forced to use Windows.

Yes, sure, these are valid arguments. Don't get me wrong, wine, dxvk etc. are cool projects and should continue to prosper to attract more people to get their loved games over to Linux land. People should just keep in mind that a game bought specifically for wine is a windows sell and won't help to increase Linux sells. Stated differently, (potential) native versions or ports should be strongly preferred, even when released much much later.

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Quoting: ShmerlMarket share doesn't matter currently. Despite its growth, legacy publishers still don't care, because they are legacy and backwards thinking. So market share alone won't help (unless we get to some huge double digits I suppose).

C'on, there is no growth, or just minimal growth. Currently Linux needs all the help it can get to somehow reach 5% or 10% to get some attention of the bigger players. I can understand from your perspective that you don't like the big boys, but Linux needs them to become a serious gaming platform imho.

Quoting: ShmerlFeral and Co. will find something else to do. Like making their own engines or games :)

I'm less optimistic, they will just concentrate their efforts on Mac/iOS and leave Linux for good.

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