Quoting: GuestYou've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. There's no reason a native GNU/Linux game can't perform as well as a Windows one, but porting after the fact with a complex codebase that's designed around another platform, that's going to be troublesome no matter what (and is why there are so many crappy console to desktop ports for Windows).

Doom 2016 runs so well through wine because it's very similar to just using some cross-platform screen creation and input handling. The entire engine is designed around Vulkan, but I also suspect designed around a POSIX environment. Because of the server side, they had full support for case-sensitive filesystems in the core of the engine. All their memory management is perfectly compatible with anything - again, they need it to be because of server side. So in a very real sense, it was development with a native *nix environment in mind, and the end result is a flawless running game.

If you can get in while the game is being developed, and support GNU/Linux at that stage, then it becomes a much better end product compared to porting after the fact.

(Kinda hoping Stadia will help this aspect of gaming - even if there's no official native port, the design of games might progress to a stage where they're much better aligned with GNU/Linux environments.)

This whole ordeal with native vs wine is precisely why I am convinced Proton is a benefit more than anything else. Yes, it can and will make developers decide against a native port because it runs with Proton but that I think is for better. Some developers are in dire situations and may not be able to justify a port (costs to much), and so a Proton route would work for them. While others may be lazy, but if that's their mindset then it's likely that they would have developed Linux release poorly. Just to get it out of the way and check that "Linux Kickstarter" promise.

I am confident Stadia will help Proton question is just how much. As we already know the game developers will need to use Vulkan. So with that in mind these are the noteworthy games:
Baldursgate 3 - Previous games have had Linux release
Borderlands 3 - Previous games have had Linux release
Destiny 2 - Releases on Steam. VAC or/and Steam trustmatchmaking for anti cheat?
Doom Eternal - DRM free or will Denuvo version work with Linux?
Metro Exodus - Feral magic
Shadow of.. - Feral magic highly likely

More games will come from other developers as well.

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Quoting: SalvatosNot to discount the rest of your argument, but I don't find this part to be particularly tied to Proton. We've seen native ports (and software in general) become broken and never get fixed, and Proton support doesn't have to be a one-and-done thing: they can keep supporting and patching the game to maintain Proton compatibility. It's more a matter of how committed a dev is to supporting Linux than how they choose to do it.

Quoting: BeamboomAdd to this the sad(?) fact that indeed Proton have been observed to perform better than the ported games (compared to the Windows performance), and this picture is really starting to get a bit convoluted - and really quite interesting.

Any software that is abandoned will sooner or later break as things change. It's nothing special to Linux as you all know. But what's to take note is that on Linux this happen more. Developers make a port, release it then they abandon or neglect the game. There are other factors that make it more likely that "native"/native ports will have higher risk of issues; developers have less experience with Linux, they have used software components that can cause issues (D3D, DX sound, their own anti cheat solution etc), sloppy development and so on.

Deep Silver supporting Steam Machines is what spurred the Metro Last Light port. Steam Machines didn't materialize to be the big thing they hoped for, so they have abandoned the port. When you go to adjust graphic settings all you have is a quality slider, and that's not only issue with that "native" port.

Native games underperforming or breaking is because of developers and not inherently because developing games on Linux is bad. Even Feral can't do anything about this, with Tomb Raider underperforming compared to Windows [External Link]. If Feral was on the task to make a Linux version, while the game was being developed, you can bet the performance would be comparable to Windows.

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Quoting: Beamboom... But why? Why does it matter, if Proton provides a 100% working out of the box experience on par with a native build?
If you experience no difference?

Because them developing their games properly for Linux will help the ecosystem, and there is also the risk of Proton not working anymore. When devs develop for Linux they will experience issues, file bugs and then get it all fixed. Linux gaming and desktop will benefit. This is what Valve experienced when they began their Linux journey. They contributed to improving drivers, and now we are benefiting from that work. If developers continue to rely on Steam Play Linux ecosystem will not grow as much as it can if they do. But I want to emphasize, that I'm talking of a hypothetical situation where we achieve market share of 5-10%, which will give us the right demand. Right now I find it unreasonable to demand native ports as Linux is not profitable or profitable enough.

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Quoting: BeamboomBut if I may ask:
From your perspective, all things considered, does it really matter if Proton or not as long as it works 100% out of the box and on par with native builds? I mean, it's less work for the devs (ergo more profitable per sale) and the same experience for us?

You didn't ask me but I hope you don't mind me answering:
At the moment with current market share it does not matter. Linux is either not profitable or not profitable enough. Proton will allow developers to support us. But when our market share reaches a point where we have valid reasons to ask for a native port, then it matters. When and if that time ever comes, "No Tux No Buck" will be as meaningful response as it ever can be.

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To be fair to Epic, they have little power over consoles. On Mac, Windows and Android they can release their store but Xbox and PS4 they can't. So they have to either take out their games from consoles, to sending a message (losing alot revenue), or let them stay there for time being til split changes on PC and then they can pressure consoles with that change. One of the things on their roadmap is a Android store, so they seem to have intentions to go after Google too if they are successful on Windows.
So it's reasonable what they are doing. I just question how sincere they are. Epic seems like a snake in grass trying to attack a wolf which is fishing for fish. I mean clearly Valve's fur isn't all white, but they certainly are good for PC gaming.

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Quoting: NanobangSpeaking of which, are games being sold on Epic's store for 18% cheaper? If they're not, then that's more money for the makers, nothing good for the customer. Win/lose in that relationship.

How about for the employees at the game companies like Paradox? Are the board members, share-holders, and executives using that additional 18% profit to hire more employees, or give raises to current employees or otherwise improve working conditions? I don't know, but from what I've seen of corporations, not unless you put a gun to their collective head.

I don't believe any of that. The cheaper games seems to be just a phase for them to be able to market the store. "Look gamers get cheaper games". Then when the dust settles and Epic gets foot hold, the prices will go back to the same as usual. Same for developers who work on games, most likely money will not be spread fairly to devs or used to hire more.

EDIT: There are or was games on Epic being sold for less than $60. I think Metro Exodus and World War Z was two of them. But as I said it seems to be just a act to market the store as opposed to a new price rule. Epic has not made any rule, like GOG has with DRM, where they say games must cost less than $60. It's all up to publishers and those who hold the right.

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I'm with Valve on this. They offer alot for us consumers. To name one, on consoles you have to pay for the online service. For most big companies I don't really care. They detract more from gaming than add to it. These companies that I have in mind are ones that are likely to abuse purpose of Steam Play by not using developing their games natively for Linux if a time comes when we have market share. They are the ones that want better condition for themselves, more money, but then don't give a damn about linux gamers even when situation allows them to do so with little cost (e.g Doom and Bethesda/Zenimax). They are the ones that divide us on hardware and software platforms through exclusivity deals instead of uniting us. They will claim to set a precedent with the 12-88 split, that a new age of better prices for PC gamers will come. As "developers" will pass on the savings.

They are the developers who cheer Google on when they announce their Stadia announcement. And as they cheer them on, many of them probably don't think "This great. I can now also justify a Linux port because Stadia and Linux are in same pool". Excuse me but I don't care that much about devs except those who I know are worthy of praise. Why should I care about fairness in relation to the split when they don't care about me as a gamer? That said, I do think Valve's 30% for indies is not fair. For the bigger companies, I think it's justified.

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Quoting: GuestAbsolutely agreed.

I also forgot to mention another benefit of Wine in general (and I'll stick to writing "Wine" because this applies outside of Steam) and that's for archival. Old games, some even with GNU/Linux native versions, may not run properly on modern systems. Wine helps resolve that in some cases, similar to dosbox, though I daresay with increasing complexity of larger modern games this won't be as viable in the future.

...of course source code would be even better, but hey, that's orthogonal to the conversation really.

Indeed. I hope though that Steam Play can be able to achieve its goal of increasing market share before it's effort is shutdown by companies like Microsoft putting in software in games that will make the games not run as good as they do currently. That is my only concern for Steam Play. Otherwise I am optimistic that in long run (three years from now) the market share will surely have increased.

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Quoting: GuestThere are other reasons for not wanting to rely on Wine for gaming, even if Vulkan is used natively (by the way, a Stadia port does not mean a Windows version will also use Vulkan - in fact, there's very little chance of that if the Windows version is using DX11 or DX12).

Ancillary benefits from natively developed games include: better tooling, more stable drivers, investment in resolving certain compatibility problems, non-reliance on Microsoft, different compilers (often can spot problems, so I would imagine a Stadia port would help here as well as native for desktop GNU/Linux), possible peripheral devices being better supported (if more native games exist, and market share grows), etc.

But of course Wine (and anything based off it), eON, dosbox, etc, all help individuals play games they want without locking themselves into Windows. So it's very important to have that.

Basically there is _plenty_ of room for both native and wrapped games, and both are absolutely needed.

It goes without saying that native ports is the ultimate outcome. But market share must be higher for that to happen. Even if we reach market share that rivals Mac, developers could be lazy and rely on Steam Play for easy money. So I expect gaming on Linux will go through a phase of many games being played through Steam Play. And if that is what we have to settle with, until market share is so significant they can't neglect us anymore, then I hope the developers at least ensure best possible compliance with Steam Play (Vulkan, no drm, no middleware etc).

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Quoting: BeamboomBut my main point is to try to establish an understanding on just how small we are in this pond. That perspective is fundamental when considering the pros and cons for Steam Play.

Definitely we are small. Even if we do get 5% marketshare and the game in question will be supported on Stadia, companies like EA may take the lazy route and not release a native port and let Steam Play do the work for them. But even if they take that route, as long as Vulkan is available for SteamPlay for games it will still add tremendously to Linux. There is barely any difference between a native Vulkan game and one that runs through Steam Play. It's not even close to as pronounced as running game on Steam Play through DXVK.

I am optimistic about 2020. I just hope Valve can resolve anti cheat before end of year.

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