liamdawe: I don't mind the other thread, but the amount of nonsense said above (like comparing Steam client with a browser and claiming that Steam has no DRM because of that) is just puzzling.

Caldazar: I think I explained it already. I don't mind downloading stuff. I mind inability to make backups which are independent of the service and its DRMed client. Please note the difference.

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For those who compared Steam client with browsers - you are wrong. Is Steam client open source? Even if it doesn't need to connect to the server to reinstall a backup (which I doubt, it most probably does need to connect to the server), where can you get that client if Steam goes bust? It's closed and proprietary. So if Steam closes down you lose the service and the client. So comparison with the browser goes out of the window.

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Quoting: Quote from AoC"I think you sell arms or you don't. If you sell them inevitable they will end up in the hands of those with the cash to buy them." -Sir Humphrey.

If you want games on Linux you will have DRM on Linux since it's entrenched in the industry... "I for one am grateful." - Rabbit-Tooth Jane

It's not as bad as with video. DRM free games are increasing in number, so if you want games on Linux, you don't need DRMed games. It's not "entrenched in the industry". Its entrenched in distributors who are conductive for its usage. But this was indeed already discussed at length.

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Half-Shot: As I said. Valve can offer something... DRM-free for a change ;)

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I'd expect that Debian developers are pretty negative about DRM in general, so this move from Valve is rather weird.

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Steam backup ability doesn't work for installation without Steam. And I'm not sure about all games being self contained and not relying on installation scripts. But if you saw this documented somewhere, that's another matter.

About attitude - that was about not providing packages for download easily. Saying "go to the game directory, fish it out and let's hope it will work as is" is not a serious way to handle that. It's dismissive or unsupported in my book. That's the attitude I was talking about.

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fowll: And? Why would you rely on any of their promises? Promises don't substitute backups, and promises aren't part of your user agreement with Valve, so they can always say they have no obligations to keep them if they go bankrupt (they even might not have an ability to keep them at that point).

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Disharmonic: It might be true for some games (like with self contained directories) and might be not true for others (which have some installation scripts and etc.). Anyway, the lack of official support for such DRM free packages makes me consider Steam to be always DRMed (with ways to bypass it in cases when you can manually backup the game). It's the attitude that I consider bad the most, which is enough of a reason for me not to use Steam. In contrast, HB and GOG officially offer DRM-free packages and make an effort to support the usability of such approach.

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Any DRM is DRM, far or not. If the service closes down, and let's say you own a few thousands worth of games there, is it far that you won't be able to install any of them because you didn't have an option to back them up when you bought them? I know quite a few people who avoid using Steam just for that reason. Any DRM is bad.

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I wasn't talking about Steamworks lock-in, which developers can avoid if they wish. It's bad of course. I was talking about requiring to run the client and connecting to the service to install the game. It's step 1 DRM, and no, Steam offers no packages outside the service. Sometimes you can manually copy stuff and reuse, but that's not an official support when the service provides a package (like HB and GOG do). Therefore I consider Steam to be always DRMed.

To clarify, it's not about a burden of logging in anywhere. It's about an ability to install (from a backup for example) and run the game without the service.

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