Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Rooster

Quoting: GuestI think the danger of turning it into basically Windows needs to be considered. Does that make sense? Long worded, but obviously something that I am concerned about.

Not really sure what you mean by that. Why would more people adapting Linux for gaming turn it into Windows?

(oh damn, I wrote a lot - well it's a good question, thought it deserved a decent effort for me to answer)

I have really nothing much else to add elsewhere, can't really add anything other than words to the other points, just wanted to say about this one: DRM (_not_ Direct Rendering Manager, the other DRM), invasive anti-cheat (it's really not a stretch of the imagination for kernel level drivers to be a thing if various companies have their way), external companies controlling what desktop you use, what kernel version, what's compiled into your kernel, all manner of phone-home analytics, becoming a walled-garden system, only having interfaces that company XYZ permits you to have. Others deciding how gaming looks for you, not you deciding how gaming looks for you.

It's really not that far fetched. Yes, Stadia has "the ultimate DRM", but that's only for a game itself. I don't need to recompile the kernel or open up specific permissions and security holes locally to run the game. From that perspective, Stadia is allowing my system to be far more open ironically. The cost? Publishers dictate what I can do with that game. A particular conundrum I have no answer for.

I'd rather gaming be adapted to GNU/Linux, than GNU/Linux (or really even just Linux as the kernel) be adapted to gaming because I see the latter turning into "GNU/Linux being locked down for gaming". Not saying that is definitely the path it's going down, but I can see signs of it headed that way and we should all be cautious.

Last example for, because wow am I carrying on, but when VP first released Witcher 2 there was an uproar over a supported compatibility layer being used. Valve package their own flavour of wine, plug in dxvk, and help bring modifications to the kernel to have that run better - and nobody bats an eyelid. I'm not saying these aren't all useful software technologies, instead it's an example of how easily opinions change, and how easily that can carry into GNU/Linux being turned into Microsoft/Linux.

I still don't understand. I mean.. You always have the option not to use any of that stuff, so what's the issue here?

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Quoting: psy-qBlazed through Dark Souls 3 .

One does not simply blaze thorough Dark Souls.

Quoting: BoldosHello everyone. I have a confession to make:
I'm a total addict to X4: Foundations.
Usually I turn it on just for a few moments, and usually I do not finish before 4am.

Am I a bad person? :unsure:

No way. Actually this is why I've been putting of getting into X4, because I know that game is such a time sink.

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After one year of owning the game, I was finally able to get into Everspace. And man.. What a dumb chicken I am for not playing it earlier. I love the game more than I ever though I would.

So why did I not start playing it earlier? Well I'm not much into rouge-likes or rouge-lights. What I did not know is that this game is rouge-light in the same way FTL is, meaning you don't go through the same levels, they change on every run. It is still rubbing me the wrong way loosing all gear when I die, but at least the perks stay, which can make you significantly stronger, so I don't mind it too much.

Now what is the actual reason I love the game? The exploration. You never know what you will stumble upon and there is some crazy and interesting stuff out there.

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Quoting: GuestRealized I might not have been clear: I mean sure, it can try to be used as both, I just don't see that happening without an external push (steam machines type thing) - and even then I'm not really sure it would work anyway without some kind of exclusivity. Basically as an extra bit of sweetener for the deal, not the deal itself.

I believe it needs to be both, an external push and the ability to be able to play most games on Linux. And history supports me on this. We already had the external push, which was SteamOS and Valve. But as we can see, that alone wasn't enough to keep driving Linux adoption as a gaming platform.

Quoting: GuestThis is actually a point that I know a lot of people disagree with me on: is there any need to get a higher market share through such means? There's no particular rush as far as I'm aware, things can go at their own pace and do it the GNU/Linux way rather than take any shortcuts that have a habit of sticking around a lot longer.

I'm pretty sure people were saying the similar things when Valve came backing Linux gaming. And yes, it certainly changed Linux as a gaming platform and many people argue that for the worst. What used to be a mostly non DMR open source gaming platform is now "dirtied" by Valves DRM and many Linux users who do not care about free open source software at all. But if that didn't happen, I most likely wouldn't be here now and I would definitely not know anything about free open source software, as I only learned about it thanks to being a Linux user. So while Valve was certainly a "necessary evil" to grow Linux as gaming platform to where it is today, I'm for one am glad it happened.

Quoting: GuestI think the danger of turning it into basically Windows needs to be considered. Does that make sense? Long worded, but obviously something that I am concerned about.

Not really sure what you mean by that. Why would more people adapting Linux for gaming turn it into Windows?

Quoting: GuestIt would more than likely just make people use Windows again.

Some people definitely would. Some people definitely wouldn't. It is impossible to predict how many would fall into each category. Only time will tell, if we ever get to that point. All I know is that right now, Proton/Wine/dxvk is good for Linux adoption as a gaming platform. How many people actually stick with it once obstacles come into their way would be for another discussion.

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Quoting: Guest1. Definitely agree, profit would drive developer (or maybe that should be publisher, but I think we all mean the same thing under "developer" as an umbrella term). I would say less about more gamers using GNU/Linux though, rather more people using (desktop) GNU/Linux. Subtle perhaps, but as I see it the gaming will come from the latter as opposed to driving it, so there's no real dependency circle (as I see it).

Well.. I myself am a Linux user first and gamer second. I used the word "gamers" (a word I don't like btw) to specifically refer to people for whom being able to game on the platform is much more important for switching over. Of course gaming is not the actual driver, otherwise switching wouldn't make sense for them. But it is something that prevents them from switching, that's where the dependency cycle comes from.

Quoting: GuestThat kinda makes wine more useful for those already using GNU/Linux, not as a tool for adoption in the first place.

Why not both?

Quoting: Guest1.1) if wine+dxvk (and dxvk was the trigger behind the recent surge in wine usage, and Valve's interest) was such the way forward, why are Google not using it to power games through Stadia?

Wine+dxvk is a way forward for Linux adoption, but a step back for Linux native development. For now. Once we reach like 5% market share on Steam, I will be the first to tell people that they should only buy native games. However right now, wine+dxvk is the "necessary evil" to get there.

Quoting: Guest1.2) what about the legal status behind wine, and even dxvk? Nobody has really wanted to answer that, nobody really wants to face it, but you can be sure Microsoft will jump in should they consider it useful to retain users.

When Microsoft jumps in and renders wine/dxvk useless through legal or other ways, it would make the need of native Linux version much bigger with now even more Linux users/gamers who adopted Linux in the meantime so.. Yay?

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: Rooster

Quoting: GuestNot officially, but there are a small few of their devs who will fix wine issues and add them into the patches.

Again, that's not the same as actually targeting Proton. Targeting Proton would be if the dev officialy made it clear that they intent for the game to work through Proton.

And don't worry you are not being a pedantic a-hole :grin: I'm actually glad you mentioned it, as I didn't know about it. I just don't see how it is different from the example I mentioned with No Man's Sky.

Yeah, Blizzard just threw a bone a few times to Linux players over the years and not much else. Targetting Proton would mean having Linux machines setup, with regular testing and if something breaks to not roll it out - and who is really going to do that?

Yep, I agree, no one.
I don't think targeting Proton should ever be a thing, I was simply arguing that targeting Proton =/= targeting Windows.

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Quoting: RoosterTargeting Proton =/= targeting Windows. Targeting Proton = targeting Windows, while making sure it works on Linux through Wine. Which correct me if I'm wrong, but no developer ever did so far.

Actually I will correct myself. Targeting Proton, which is basically just Wine, so targeting Wine, was done in the past. For example for Witcher 2, where the developer included the compatibility layer with the game for Linux. Which if you think about it, is the only sensible way for developer to target Wine (Proton).

Still very different from just targeting Windows.

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Quoting: GuestNot officially, but there are a small few of their devs who will fix wine issues and add them into the patches.

Again, that's not the same as actually targeting Proton. Targeting Proton would be if the dev officialy made it clear that they intent for the game to work through Proton.

And don't worry you are not being a pedantic a-hole :grin: I'm actually glad you mentioned it, as I didn't know about it. I just don't see how it is different from the example I mentioned with No Man's Sky.

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Quoting: Liam DaweI believe mirv is simply trying to expand on what I said, about targetting Protom simply being Windows. The point is: Microsoft control everything about it, because Proton is basically copying and following Windows so Microsoft have the ultimate control over what it does and where it goes.

I think what both of you are trying to say is that Proton/Wine is tied to Windows. That way it's more clear, 100% true and not blown out of proportion.

Targeting Proton =/= targeting Windows. Targeting Proton = targeting Windows, while making sure it works on Linux through Wine. Which correct me if I'm wrong, but no developer ever did so far. Yes there was that No Man's Sky patch which makes the game run better on Proton, but that was done only after they got complains from Linux gamers. They initial answer was: That's a Valve thing. Then they probably figured out it is not that much hassle to fix it, so they did it. Very different from actually targeting Proton.

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Quoting: GuestI'll reiterate: "Proton" is not the way forward for GNU/Linux games.

C'mon mirv, I take you on in this discussion instead.

Just like you, I want more native Linux games. Now how do we get more native Linux games? 2 ways:
1. If it's profitable enough for the developer to support Linux
2. If doing a native Linux version requires very little additional work

1
So how can it be more profitable for devs to support Linux? If more gamers use Linux. How will more gamers use Linux? If there are more Linux games. But wait.. Isn't that a dependency circle? Yes it is. So aside from more native games, how will more gamers adapt Linux for gaming? Through tools that allow them to run a game on Linux that isn't natively supported. In comes Stadia. But what about those many many people who don't have a really fast internet connection? Out goes Stadia. In comes Wine/Proton. So there you go. Along with Stadia and other streaming services, not only is Proton a way forward for GNU/Linux, it is the only way forward.

Now why would those people switch to Linux to use a Windows compatibility layer on it, if they can just keep using Windows? Good question. And there is only one real answer: They don't like Windows. If this condition isn't met, there is no real reason for them to switch to Linux. However, if this condition is met, Wine is the necessary step to get them started on Linux (aside from people who have a fast internet connection and can use streaming services).

2
How can doing native Linux version be made easier for game developers? Better Linux support for game engines and third party tools.

- For proprietary engines and tools, what would make them have better Linux support? If supporting Linux was more profitable. What will make supporting Linux more profitable? If more people use Linux. Sow we back to point 1.

- For free open source non profit engines and tools, that's a different story. That's why I always say people who really want to support gaming on Linux should donate to Godot instead of buying countless native games, most of which they never even play.

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