Metro Exodus is still planned to release for Linux and macOS

"Wine is not an emulator" is a half joke. Not only Wine emulates Windows, it can even emulate x86 on ARM (hardware emulation for the win!) to run Windows programs on Android for example. So not sure what's the point to waste time on arguing about it.

It doesn't emulate Windows. It translates Windows system calls into POSIX-compliant system calls.

The point for end user is this:

Emulator - always a significant performance decrease when compared to the real thing
Wine - Usually the performance decrease when compared to the real thing is insignificant, sometimes even non-existent.

It doesn't emulate Windows. It translates Windows system calls into POSIX-compliant system calls.

Which I have no problem calling emulating Windows API.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emulation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulation
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/emulation

Your expectation that the word emulation has a narrow meaning of hardware emulation is unfounded.


Last edited by Shmerl on 27 Nov 2020 at 7:56 am UTC

It doesn't emulate Windows. It translates Windows system calls into POSIX-compliant system calls.

Which I have no problem calling emulating Windows API.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/emulation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emulation
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/emulation

Your expectation that the word emulation has a narrow meaning of hardware emulation is unfounded.

https://www.tutorialspoint.com/what-are-system-calls-in-operating-system

Look at the table on this website. That's Wine in its simplest, very simplified form. All you need to do is slap one function which calls the Linux equivalent whenever there is a Windows system call in the code. Would you call that an emulation?

Sure. I'd call it emulation. Synonym - copy, imitate, mimic, behave like.

Wine tries to behave like Windows (copies Windows behavior for the program). It does that translating the calls sure, but it still copies Windows behavior = emulates Windows.


Last edited by Shmerl on 27 Nov 2020 at 8:22 am UTC

Sure. I'd call it emulation. Synonym - copy, imitate, mimic, behave like.

Wine tries to behave like Windows (copies Windows behavior for the program). It does that translating the calls sure, but it still copies Windows behavior = emulates Windows.

Okay, I think I'm starting to understand you now.

But then using your understanding of an emulator, what I wrote before:

Emulator - always a significant performance decrease when compared to the real thing
Wine - Usually the performance decrease when compared to the real thing is insignificant, sometimes even non-existent.

Becomes this:

Emulator - performance decrease (or possibly even increase) depends on the implementation
Wine - Usually the performance decrease when compared to the real thing is insignificant, sometimes even non-existent.

Yeah. Whether emulator decreases performance or not is inconsequential. May be your method of emulation is so efficient, that it makes it even faster than the original. Emulation itself doesn't imply any performance specifics. It just refers to the copying of behavior.


Last edited by Shmerl on 27 Nov 2020 at 9:10 am UTC

I should have known better to raise the emulator thing on GOL...

So, just so we're clear:

• Spectrum was better than C64


• Atari ST was better than Amiga


• Sega Megadrive was better than the Nintendo SNES


• GIMP is a stupid name that detracts from its professional image


• Ubuntu Unity was among the best DE's in existence


• Window buttons should be on the right side of the window decoration


• vi is cursed - just use nano


• AMD is superior to Nvidia (on Linux)


• PC does not mean Windows


• Wine is an emulator for the vast, vast majority of people

Glad I got all that off my chest. And it's Friday! Roll on the weekend. Have a good one, everyone!

Yeah. Whether emulator decreases performance or not is inconsequential. May be your method of emulation is so efficient, that it makes it even faster than the original. Emulation itself doesn't imply any performance specifics. It just refers to the copying of behavior.

Problem is, for most people the word emulator invokes performance decrease. That's why the meaning of what Wine stands for was changed from Windows Emulator to Wine Is Not an Emulator and nowadays, terms like compatibility layer or wrapper are used instead. Unfortunatelly, it's another case of peoples incorect understanding of certain term causing the neccesity to create new terms, but well.. what can you do.

I should have known better to raise the emulator thing on GOL...

So, just so we're clear:

• Spectrum was better than C64


• Atari ST was better than Amiga


• Sega Megadrive was better than the Nintendo SNES


• GIMP is a stupid name that detracts from its professional image


• Ubuntu Unity was among the best DE's in existence


• Window buttons should be on the right side of the window decoration


• vi is cursed - just use nano


• AMD is superior to Nvidia (on Linux)


• PC does not mean Windows


• Wine is an emulator for the vast, vast majority of people

Glad I got all that off my chest. And it's Friday! Roll on the weekend. Have a good one, everyone!

Heh. You think that's bad? Watch this:

Just so we're clear:

• Buying games that work in Proton while also financially supporting Godot is waaay better for Linux gaming than buying only native games.

Have a great weekend, everyone


Last edited by Rooster on 27 Nov 2020 at 9:41 am UTC

Is that contentious though??

I support Godot, Wine AND a tiny handful of indie developers for that very reason! I also support Icculus and it annoys me no end that Ethan Lee only allows GitHub payments, or I'd be throwing him $5 a month too. My Patreon bill is nearly as high as my TV bill these days!!


Last edited by scaine on 27 Nov 2020 at 10:28 am UTC

Atari ST was better than Amiga

Agreed with everything you said, except this. And I had both of them!

Atari ST was better than Amiga

Agreed with everything you said, except this. And I had both of them!

Me too! I love them both equally, but I got my ST first, so it's just edging out the Amiga for me!

Ubuntu Unity was among the best DE's in existence

This is blasphemy. I should call the Spanish inquisition.

Not to mention that:

Window buttons should be on the right side of the window decoration

wasn't the default location of the buttons in Unity. You hate what you love!

Window buttons should be on the right side of the window decoration

wasn't the default location of the buttons in Unity. You hate what you love!

One of my few claims to fame was arguing directly with Mark Shuttleworth on launchpad on the placement of window decorations. He had this weird notion that he was going to put a ton of client-side decoration on the right hand side of the window, so he wanted the buttons moved over. I was pretty vocal in my objections, but of course, "dictator for life" won out, and I fell in love with ubuntu-tweak and latterly gnome-tweak to restore the natural order. Those magical client-side decorations never did see the light of day and in the end, the whole of Unity was scrapped too.

I preferred Ubuntu when they were ruffling feathers though, making waves. The incredible hypocrisy of accusing Canonical of NIH (not invented here) syndrome really rubbed me the wrong way. I was like, bitch please, we have 1203 music players, 143 desktop environments, 29 sound architectures, 19 packaging systems and partridge in a pear tree. People complaining about Mir or Unity could, quite simply, do one, in my opinion. Humbly submitted.

And for the record, here's another contentious opinion... Wayland sucks. It's been promising to deliver... something, I don't know what, for decades. Feels like decades anyway. And Nvidia still isn't supporting it??

Anyway. Big apology to Liam - we're a wee bit off topic from Metro Exodus at this point!!

Is that contentious though??

I support Godot, Wine AND a tiny handful of indie developers for that very reason! I also support Icculus and it annoys me no end that Ethan Lee only allows GitHub payments, or I'd be throwing him $5 a month too. My Patreon bill is nearly as high as my TV bill these days!!

You would be surprised how many people don't support any of what you mentioned, but buy ton of native Linux games, which they almost never play, but do so to "support Linux gaming". I was one of those people. Now instead of buying games I touch for total of 10 minutes, I only buy games I know for sure I want to play (I still take if game is native or not into consideration, but not so much as before) and spend the rest of the money on supporting open source projects like Godot.


Why do you still have TV man? Isn't it all about that Netflix life now?


Last edited by Rooster on 27 Nov 2020 at 3:24 pm UTC

Ubuntu Unity was among the best DE's in existence

This is blasphemy. I should call the Spanish inquisition.

Please add me to the list of the blasphemers... Unity was awesome, imo.


Last edited by Mohandevir on 27 Nov 2020 at 3:52 pm UTC

It's a little disappointing that they aren't using Vulkan (with RT). Little because if they use DXVK for Stadia too then it shows them not discriminating against Linux. Simply a business related decision. If you look at Metro Last Light, it's not a quality port. So I think we should lower our expectations in this case. Devs engaging with Linux is better than not doing. Remember Proton and DXVK are forces for good. End goal is to lay the groundwork for sustainable native releases.

Relying on Proton and DXVK will get them more experience with Linux ecosystem. Perhaps this time around their port of Exodus, even with DXVK, will be of far superior quality than their port of Last Light. Developers using DXVK/Proton will just accelerate the performance of games running through WINE.

It remains on my wish list, to be bought once the Linux port is released.

Atari ST was better than Amiga

Agreed with everything you said, except this. And I had both of them!

Me too! I love them both equally, but I got my ST first, so it's just edging out the Amiga for me!

It really depends on time frame. The ST was initially better and had the upper hand. Then developers actually started using the Amiga... it went from original games on the ST and ports to the Amiga, to originals on the Amiga and ports to the ST.
But for professional things, the ST seemed to have the edge on everything but graphics / audio and video editing. The ST just killed for music production though.

Ha, completely off topic...

But back to the emulation thing... yes emulation is specifically to emulate hardware. Even DosBox is considered an emulator as it has to emulate earlier x86 CPUs for functions that don't exist anymore. ScummVM is as much as an emulator as Wine is. Hint: it isn't.

I don't know why it's such a terrible thing to keep using the computer definition of emulator as it originally existed in order to be clear. The computer term 'emulator' was coined to specifically mean 'software that imitates hardware.' Software that imitates software is generally referred to as a 'wrapper.'

I like keeping the definition of 'emulator' because then I don't have to explain every time I use it whether I'm talking about hardware or software. It's an explanation in itself, unless of course you have people watering down its meaning. So, yes, I insist that emulator means 'software that imitates hardware.'

Incidentally, Wine for ARM by itself runs Windows ARM executables in Linux. To run Windows x86/AMD64 executables, you need to use an emulator (usually qemu) somewhere in you chain. The nice thing about some of the newer implementations is that you don't have to emulate an entire system but only part of it.