KDE Discover gets update to prevent you breaking your Linux system

Quoting: BeamboomHands up, those of you who's never fucked up your Linux system, removed packages you shouldn't have, or screwed around in config files to the extent that you just had to reinstall the system?

... No? Nobody?

... We have ALL done that. Every single one of us. And we learnt from that! We GREW, that day. We became wiser, and better at reading and better at understanding, even RESPECTING the system.

Apparently not all (Yay Nezchan!) but yeah, I've done some of that stuff. I started using Linux 20 years ago or more and I've had to wrestle with it, and I fancy myself not a stupid person so I was able to learn some of what I needed to do so.
But, and this may blow your mind, I hated it.
No, having to fix all kinds of crap and having that sometimes fail and even make things worse did not make me respect the system, it made me pissed off. I respect systems that work. No, it didn't make me grow, and it didn't make me wiser. Are you kidding me? Learning philosophy makes you wiser. Learning some technical details makes you know technical details. I want the hours back that I spent doing all that nonsense so I can use them to read fantasy books or learn more about political economy or history.

I started using Linux because I liked the concept of Free Software on a political level, because I hated Microsoft, and because despite all the hassles with Linux it was still usually less annoying than the hassles and impositions from Windows 95 and 98 and Xtra Proprietary. But I like systems that work and don't make me use the command line, and if there is a reason to use the command line I want that process also to be quick, and painless, and work.
Luckily, over the years Linux has gotten better and better for people like me. But Linux is open and full of choice. There is nothing stopping people like me from using Linux Mint or some other distro that pretty much Just Works. And there is nothing stopping people like you from using Linux From Scratch or Gentoo or something.

I'm not telling you you can't do it your way. So how about you stop telling me I'm not allowed to do it my way? Hmmmm?

Quoting: Guestc) This talk of gatekeeping is utter crap. GNU/Linux is for everybody, that's the point. However, it's important to note that not every distro is for everybody. There are more experienced people who want to break, and want to learn, and make their system work their way. There are people who just want to click "go". And there's a whole range in-between. Which makes "improve" extremely subjective, which is a problem in and of itself.

Um, but Beamboom is literally and specifically saying that nobody who wants to just click "go" should be using Linux. At all. Ever. Beamboom is literally saying that Linux should not only remain used by only a minority on the desktop, but specifying just who that minority should be allowed to be (and I'm not a member, incidentally--it appears people like me should be banished to Windows or MacOS). I don't see how you can not call that gatekeeping.

So I'd say the gatekeeping is utter crap, not the talk of gatekeeping. And yes, I'm going to get "hot under the collar" when I'm told that people like me shouldn't have been allowed in the club. So are you telling me I should shut up and let myself be gatekept?


Last edited by Purple Library Guy on 20 November 2021 at 10:20 pm UTC

Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: Glog78

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: Glog78I haven't said anything in a long time, but i am really "pissed" off what is currently happening. If i wanted a os which takes my hand and makes assumptions or decissions for me i would have stayed with windows or mac os ...

There is an override switch.

It's not making assumptions or decisions for you. It simply has a protection to prevent removing system critical packages by accident.

No one is taking anything away from you. apt is simply being made more newbie friendly. You can still break your system as much as you want.

More newbie friendly or for me another fucking option i need to remember and which because it should be newbie friendly won't be easy to find again (once in a blue moon when i am in charge of a debian based system) .... Specially ubuntu has been developed to a hell of a package management ...

You don't update snap -> oh the gui tool breaks because it tries to update snaps first. Oh after you got down and notice you need a new snap version you finally can now update the package ... synaptic using apt-get ... apt-get using apt .... which tool will give you now the option ? will they all be adapted or will because we are newbe friendly only that one hidden switch for apt (lowest level) be able to do what i want ? Also why did kde adapt something which clearly belongs into the hand of package management ? And does synaptic now do the same or whatever gui package manager you use ?

Perhaps you should refrain from posting again. Because this all sounds like ... well "unsubstantial ranting". First Snap. Since when do you update snaps by yourself? Granted you can, but by default they are updated autonomously and will never, ever conflict with your deb-packages (that's after all one of their selling points). Then you have synaptic (my favorite package manager) which does nothing else than provide a gui frontend for apt-*. And apt-get doesn't invoke apt, apt is just a "better apt-get". And yes it doesn't matter whether you use apt, apt-get, aptitude, synaptic or Gnome Software - they always use the same repos and they always install/uninstall or update the same packages.

Besides: Pretty much all distros nowadays prevent you from executing a sudo rm -fr / May I ask why? Legend has it that it was introduced because too many "elitist" found it oh so funny to troll newbies with this command...

no thats no unsubstantial ranting -> ... ubuntu 20.04 got into an update loop with the gui where basically they tried to update snaps and broke on a download error ... that prevented the apt part to update snap or in other words prevented the whole pc to update. fixed by an command line -> apt-get update / apt-get upgrade and after let the gui update the snaps

second ... the hplip driver which is need for the 179fwg which is currently needed from hp is broken. I guess for some python-dbus update (i was to lazy to figure it all out) changed to wlan setup instead of usb.

i won't try if a sudo rm -rf /* is catched on my distribution , cause i am 90% sure it isn't and i am to lazy to do so at least it works perfectly fine without a warning on subdirs ;)


Last edited by Glog78 on 20 November 2021 at 10:36 pm UTC

Quoting: Guesta) actually the gui initially forbid the removal of packages. It was doing exactly what you would like it to do. He had to bypass that - and without any other change, would the new changes to apt avoid what was done? If something is to improve, I would suggest a discussion around how to improve it, because I see the apt change (whatever your stance) as not actually solving anything.

To be honest, I don't know just what the GUI's error message was and haven't thought about how it should have been instead. Everyone seems mainly exercised about the change to apt. Which I agree was done hastily and may or may not be the best change that could have been done . . . I just don't see that it matters enough for anyone to be getting in an uproar about it. The new approach versus the old is a distinction with little practical difference. I don't frankly think that anyone objecting has arrived at their position because they really don't like the way apt works now for that bizarre little corner case, they just don't like thinking that a change, any change, got done because some know-nothing bigshot had troubles. And if they'd say that I might have some sympathy for that general point.

Quoting: Guestb) breakage is not desired, but....literally a thing nobody should ever do? Actually, no, it's absolutely a thing people might want to do (yes, I've wanted to do so before myself). My system, my choice.

Uh, breakage in general or this particular thing? I think you're very emphatically sidestepping my point. I was making a specific point about the specific rarity to nonexistence of people wanting to break their system in this particular way (and hence the unimportance to would-be breakers of changing this particular thing) . . . because to accomplish that breakage you would be using a different method. Anyway, if you use Gentoo, you can't break your system using apt in the first place, so what are you talking about?

Quoting: Purple Library GuyUm, but Beamboom is literally and specifically saying that nobody who wants to just click "go" should be using Linux. At all. Ever.

Literally? And specifically? Well then, please quote me. It should be very easy to find those quotes, since that's what I am literally saying.

What I do say, is that those who do intend to use Linux should be willing to learn it for what it is. They should have the mindset and attitude of wanting to learn a new operating system. And they should be made aware of what Linux is.

I don't want to keep anyone from using or wanting to use Linux. But they should approach on Linux' premises, and yes - they might screw up in the process.
Linux is a much more open, modular system than the other two. The users must relate to that. They should use Linux for what it IS - and it is not just some political statement, a rage against the establishment. It's not a toy to pose with, a symbol.
It is a a very unique platform with a lot that separates it from the other two OSes. By comparison it is an exceptionally fragmented and complex landscape.

Just the mere fact that there's several different audio architectures on Linux! That does almost the same for most users, only not exactly and in different ways! Just to pull out but one small example. We all could make a list with examples like that.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBeamboom is literally saying that Linux should not only remain used by only a minority on the desktop, but specifying just who that minority should be allowed to be

Again: Nonsense. I am saying that Linux will never be the major mainstream desktop OS because of what it is. Just like a system camera is not for everyone, Linux is not for everyone. But if someone wants to learn to use a system camera - go right ahead! Just don't expect it to be used like a pocket camera - nor should they TRY to!

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd yes, I'm going to get "hot under the collar" when I'm told that people like me shouldn't have been allowed in the club.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You need to cool your collar her :) . Nobody here tells you so.


Last edited by Beamboom on 20 November 2021 at 11:52 pm UTC

Ummmmmm

Y'all know you can turn the safety net off right?

Like it looks like it could be a command line option, or you could put it in the apt conf file.


It's not even a big deal. I mean the most we'd have to do is Google it when we run that issue.

Quoting: denyasisUmmmmmm

Y'all know you can turn the safety net off right?

Like it looks like it could be a command line option, or you could put it in the apt conf file.


It's not even a big deal. I mean the most we'd have to do is Google it when we run that issue.

but isn't exactly this what linus did -> turn of the safety net by going to the commandline and even ignoring the warnings there ?
How do you want prevent people from googling and doing still what they are not meant to do ?

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: AussieEeveeThere is a tiny little warning blended in with all the other white noise on the screen, and blaming Linus is just silly.

TINY? lol - dude, there's TWO explicit warnings, very clearly put, AND info on what exact packages are about to be installed, AND you're asked to type a bloody SENTENCE to get through with it.
If that ain't clear enough then you're not really mature to use a system that gives you full control.

With great powers comes great responsibilities - and that goes for the package managers too. Most definitely.

But if you're after a OS that completely PADS you inside a fuzzy box where you can do nothing to harm you - well then Linux is not, was never and hopefully never will be your right choice.

It's a real shame to see such elitist nonsense being posted here. It's techno jargon in the errors, crammed around lots of overloading info that even "power users" screw up on. There is a reason why the term "sane defaults" even exists. Unless we want Linux on the desktop to continue to be gated by zealots and remain irrelevant, we have to appeal to users who don't have the time and patience to relearn every single thing and study all error messages, just to stop their system breaking.

Nah, this time I strongly believe you are wrong, Liam.

The text was clearly indicating that they were ESSENTIAL packages, if a person doesn't understand a term, in this case what “essential” means, then that person should look that term in a dictionary.

YES, Mr. Sebastian was affected by a flaw in the Linux system that should be fixed (and it is not about APT at all), but also, YES, the youtuber has responsibility in what happened too.

Quoting: Glog78

Quoting: denyasisUmmmmmm

Y'all know you can turn the safety net off right?

Like it looks like it could be a command line option, or you could put it in the apt conf file.


It's not even a big deal. I mean the most we'd have to do is Google it when we run that issue.

but isn't exactly this what linus did -> turn of the safety net by going to the commandline and even ignoring the warnings there ?
How do you want prevent people from googling and doing still what they are not meant to do ?

It's an open source OS. You can do anything with it, even change the source to remove any safety net. While nothing will prevent that, I don't find it unreasonable to make it a little harder to nuke your system from the UI, especially for a program that gets a lot of user attention and use and so powerful/integral to the OS.

But if it's that oppressive, you can turn it off, just like the others. I can foresee doing that myself in some cases.

Come to think of that, I'm genuinely curious; What other safety nets do you turn off on your system?


I think mine are all on, the number of times apt has saved me be refusing to overwrite conf files in /etc is high.


Edit: sorry my spelling is horrible and apparently I can't complete a sentence today.

Edit: ahhh it's worse Everytime I read it!!!


Last edited by denyasis on 20 November 2021 at 11:29 pm UTC

Quoting: GuestI have to disagree with your definition of what GNU/Linux is. It doesn't have to be not so easy for people who only know Windows.

On a very fundamental level I would argue it is. Because they won't live in a bubble with just that one distro they have chosen and the eco system around it.

They will read, hear, get confused and distracted by all those other distros and alternative technologies related to Linux out there. Just take a look at any Linux user group on any social media platform. Those users will eventually join a handful of those. Look at the advice and claims posted there. Suddenly you need a special distro if you're gonna produce music. Or if you're gonna do this - or that. Not to mention the endless discussions about what is the best Linux gaming distro.

Shit like that matters - and it confuses the hell out of anyone not yet proficient enough on Linux to ignore all that nonsense.

And that's just the user groups!

All in all, they WILL soon enough be force fed the complexity and quite unstructured reality of Linux. This is just how it is. And this will not change!

Quoting: GuestBut again, different distros for different people.

If this was one distro making a fork of apt with their own mechanics, I'd just shrug my shoulders and just say, "cool enough but not for me" and proceed.

But when they make changes to the Debian package system they make changes on one of the major package management systems on the entire Linux eco system. An enormous amount of distros. It will affect all use cases there is that runs on a Debian derivative.
And that's when I say, "hold your horses, we don't do that shit because of one broken Steam package and a youtubers ignorance".


Last edited by Beamboom on 20 November 2021 at 11:47 pm UTC