Valve tweak Steam AI disclosure form for developers to clarify it's for content consumed by players

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: wit_as_a_riddle

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: wit_as_a_riddleCopyright law is very outdated for current technology.

So is capitalism. But if we're going to insist on capitalism, then within that framework I'm not sure what's going to stop anyone who creates anything from starving without copyright. We can fix copyright if we fix the overall system it's in.

For me, the strongest case for sticking with markets is the historic drop in extreme poverty: from high 60s–80% globally in the 1970s down to under 9% today.

Oh, sure, the drop in extreme poverty. So first of all, I've heard plenty about the supposed drop in extreme poverty, but I've never heard anyone mention a figure that extreme, that's just in the ridiculous propaganda realm. Don't know where you got it, but I'm pretty sure it's nonsense even in terms of the official stats that are generally bandied about.

Second, "extreme poverty" is defined in these sorts of statistics as "making less than $2 per day". That's in purchasing power parity with the US dollar. So then, if you're an American, and you make more than $60/month, you're not in "extreme poverty". Homeless people can starve to death in the US on way more than that. It's ridiculous. And since it's purchasing power parity, it is equally ridiculous everywhere else. Masses of people are, in real life, extremely poor, but the statistics claim they are not. They are quite simply statistics built to generate reassuring lies.

Third, much of this drop in "extreme poverty" represents the destruction of the peasantry. People are driven off their subsistence farms by various modern "enclosure movement" equivalents, they move to the cities and live in shanty towns where they are half starved, scraping by on whatever informal ways to scratch out a living they can find. But! Before, when they had adequate food that they grew themselves, decent shelter and generally were poor, but more or less OK, they weren't really in the monetary economy, so they made less than $2/day. Now that their lives are precarious and they can barely eat and their homes are made of cardboard or some damn thing, they make more than $2/day so they're not in "extreme poverty". Lucky them!

Fourth, another massive proportion of the drop in poverty is China. There was a period where China represented more than 100% of the drop in extreme poverty . . . which is to say, in the rest of the world extreme poverty was increasing, but it was decreasing so much in China it more than made up for it. This is not exactly a triumph of free market capitalism.

In any case, "markets" and capitalism are not the same thing. You can have markets without capitalism, it's easy, just replace all the firms owned by individual rich people and stock market investors with firms owned by governments and worker co-operatives, but leave the markets in place. Badabing, markets but no capitalism. And, you can have capitalism with no markets--we see this in US military contractors, who are often the sole source of a good which they sell only to their sole customer using cost-plus contracts which define the price paid as a function of how much it costs the firm to make the product, plus a percentage for profit. That isn't a market. And yet they are capitalist firms--private individuals own them, capital is invested in them for the purpose of generating a profit which can be reinvested.

Maybe you should talk about things you know something about. Nobody who, confronted with the term "capitalism", responds with the term "markets", knows much about either.

The ~80% in the 1970s/early 1980s down to under 10% today is based on World Bank data (via their Poverty and Inequality Platform). For example, in 1981, extreme poverty (at the then-$1.90 line, now updated to $2.15 in 2017 PPP) was around 44-50% globally in the 1980s/1990s, but longer run historical estimates (back to post-WWII or even 1800s) from sources like Our World in Data and economic historians put it much higher historically (often 80-90% pre-20th century in many reconstructions). Recent World Bank updates (as of 2025) put it around 8-10% (roughly 700-800 million people at $2.15-$3/day lines, depending on the exact revision). It's not propaganda; these are from household surveys compiled by the World Bank, UN, and others. But, you're right that no single number captures everything perfectly.

On the $2/day (now $2.15) threshold being too low: Totally fair point — it's intentionally a rock-bottom line to track the very worst deprivation (bare survival needs like food/calories). No one claims $2.15/day means a good life; it's extreme poverty by design. In the US, someone at that level (adjusted) would indeed struggle massively, and homelessness shows how even higher incomes can coincide with hardship due to costs, etc. The line uses PPP (purchasing power parity) to account for cheaper basics in poorer countries, but critics (including some economists) note it can understate urban/rich-country equivalents or non-monetary deprivations. Higher lines like $6.85/day (for upper-middle income relevance) show much slower progress — billions still below that. So I agree the "extreme" label can be misleading if it makes things sound rosier than they are.

Regarding the "destruction of the peasantry" and subsistence farms: This is a critique I've seen from folks like Jason Hickel and others— enclosure-like processes, urbanization, and market integration can push people into precarious informal work/shantytowns while monetizing previously non-monetary subsistence. In some cases it arguably worsened welfare temporarily by raising the relative cost of basics. But the data overall shows that, even in rural areas, on net the shift has coincided with huge gains in life expectancy, child survival, literacy, electricity access, etc. Many former subsistence farmers report preferring urban opportunities despite hardships (per surveys), and global hunger/calorie availability has improved dramatically. It's not that the transition is painless — far from it — but the absolute improvements (health, longevity, reduced starvation deaths) seem real and massive for billions.

China: Yes, a huge share of the drop is China (often >75-100% in certain periods, meaning other regions were flat or rising). But China's growth since the late 1970s/80s has been market-oriented reforms (Deng's opening, private enterprise, FDI, etc.), even if state-guided and not pure "free market." It's not socialism vs. capitalism in black-and-white; it's a mixed system that unleashed massive productive forces and lifted ~800 million out. Without crediting markets/incentives at all, it's hard to explain the scale/speed.

On markets vs. capitalism: Yes — markets (exchange, prices) can exist without full private-capital dominance (e.g., worker co-ops, public firms competing) and crony/contractor examples show "capitalism" without pure markets. I used "markets" because the historic poverty drop ties to global integration, trade, specialization, and incentives that reward production/efficiency—things that can happen under varied ownership, but in large majority, it's been capitalist markets that have reduced poverty.

I agree that cronyism, regulatory capture, and violations of fair competition (like illegal collusion or government-granted privileges) create real problems and distort markets. But in a truly free and competitive system, these issues stem from law-breaking or improper state intervention, not from capitalism itself. Inequality, meanwhile, is a natural outcome — people differ in talents, effort, risk-taking, and choices, and rewarding those differences drives innovation and growth. I don't see it as a flaw to be "fixed"; it's the way the world works, and what matters far more are the absolute gains in living standards that capitalist markets have delivered for the poorest. Abandoning the growth/productivity engine that has correlated with these gains risks stalling or reversing them, especially for the most vulnerable. We can (and should) enforce laws against monopolistic abuses, price-fixing, and fraud without throwing out the incentives that lift everyone.

Your points on poverty measurement flaws, enclosure dynamics, and the China factor are worth wrestling with, and I've genuinely thought about them. I don't think we're as far apart as it might seem on recognizing that stats can hide real suffering or that change is needed.

That said, your tone shift raised my eyebrows. Lines like "Maybe you should talk about things you know something about. Nobody who, confronted with the term 'capitalism', responds with the term 'markets', knows much about either" came across as pretty dismissive and petty — assuming bad faith or ignorance rather than just disagreeing. Sure, these topics get heated, (especially when they touch on big ideological stuff), but I'd rather keep this as a discussion between two people trying to figure things out than let it slide into snark or into gatekeeping who knows enough to participate. I have faith in you wanting what's best for people - I'd ask you place similar faith in me.