I have a more bleak perspective on the matter. Most people will continue to place entertainment and convenience well above any principles. The industry is going to exploit this to continue introducing these computer-in-a-computer controls until they've achieved migrating everyone fully to being a renter in their own devices.

AFAIK this is not new stuff. You had to disable Secure (!) Boot before to boot Linux and you still have to disable Secure boot. Or instead of disabling, you had to roll out your own keys but that's an annoyance few attempt to go through.

The situation is not like "the PC can boot Windows and only Windows with no alternatives" like the 32 bit Arm Surface things.
And if it was like that they would be Windows books.

Quoting: GustyGhostI have a more bleak perspective on the matter. Most people will continue to place entertainment and convenience well above any principles. The industry is going to exploit this to continue introducing these computer-in-a-computer controls until they've achieved migrating everyone fully to being a renter in their own devices.

I totally agree. Look at what gamers have already been willing to sacrifice. They've been boiling like frogs as things get worse and worse. If you try to point it out your either called crazy or told it doesn't matter.

Quoting: mr-victoryAFAIK this is not new stuff. You had to disable Secure (!) Boot before to boot Linux and you still have to disable Secure boot. Or instead of disabling, you had to roll out your own keys but that's an annoyance few attempt to go through.

The situation is not like "the PC can boot Windows and only Windows with no alternatives" like the 32 bit Arm Surface things.
And if it was like that they would be Windows books.

I look at it like EEE. Step one is to make people go through workarounds. Step 2 will be taking the workarounds away and suggesting they run Windows with the Linux subsystem. Step 3 will be to take away the subsystem and say just run Windows. Think about it, would it really shock anyone if Microsoft did that ?

Quoting: PublicNuisanceI totally agree. Look at what gamers have already been willing to sacrifice. They've been boiling like frogs as things get worse and worse. If you try to point it out your either called crazy or told it doesn't matter.

To expand on that point, we have to respect that it isn't necessarily the same exact group of people being boiled, but that new (naive) gamers [enter the scene](https://xkcd.com/1053/) each day. It's weird to think that there are kids starting out building there first computers today where it is now "normal" for to firmware and CPUs to treat the owner as an adversary to be contained.

I look at it like EEE. Step one is to make people go through workarounds. Step 2 will be taking the workarounds away and suggesting they run Windows with the Linux subsystem. Step 3 will be to take away the subsystem and say just run Windows. Think about it, would it really shock anyone if Microsoft did that ?

I have some semi-technically literate friends who already see things that way: "now I can run it on Windows subsystem **so I don't have to** install a proper Linux system". More likely MS will keep the subsystem in place while they gradually transform Windows itself into a UNIX-like. And once they arrive at full UNIXification, the layperson will cheer how wonderful and brilliant Microsoft is for "inventing" these great new features and standards.

Quoting: PublicNuisanceStep 2 will be taking the workarounds away

Yes I would be shocked and there would be a serious backslash. MS would have to take a step back in my opinion.

Quoting: GustyGhostwhile they gradually transform Windows itself into a UNIX-like

While possible, doing that while maintaining backwards compatibility seems difficult to me, they tried something similar with WSL1 but they couldn't figure it out and moved to a virtualisation based approach with WSL2.

now I can run it on Windows subsystem **so I don't have to** install a proper Linux system

This probably refers to a specific group of power users which may be a minority compared to Linux (on bare metal) users. AFAIK "thank god I am sick of Windows but I can get my job done with WSL during work, home is already Linux only" is more common.

Last edited by mr-victory on 19 Jul 2022 at 8:41 pm UTC

Quoting: mr-victory

Quoting: GustyGhostwhile they gradually transform Windows itself into a UNIX-like

While possible, doing that while maintaining backwards compatibility seems difficult to me, they tried something similar with WSL1 but they couldn't figure it out and moved to a virtualisation based approach with WSL2.

now I can run it on Windows subsystem **so I don't have to** install a proper Linux system

This probably refers to a specific group of power users which may be a minority compared to Linux (on bare metal) users. AFAIK "thank god I am sick of Windows but I can get my job done with WSL during work, home is already Linux only" is more common.

Way back in the days when I had to use Windows at work (and way before Microsoft loved Linux), there was Cygwin, which AFAICT provided most if not all of what WSL does.
And I can absolutely see the attitude described above, "why even bother installing Linux", oh dear. EEE perfection.