Thanks for all the comments. It’s good to see we have a vibrant community of assorted views here 🤟

Quoting: Liam DaweThanks for all the comments. It’s good to see we have a vibrant community of assorted views here 🤟

Speaking of an assorted view. The grammar of the forum is a bit weird. "gbudny replied to Proton is the only hope? plus so did 1 more people" Ha, always love programming grammar errors, where it doesn't take into account 1 = person. It's like some of the code at work where it has 1th 2th 3th 4th...

I just created an account a few moments ago to give my 2 cents. Surprisingly, I haven't come across many mentions of this point, apart from a couple of posts. I hope that the discussion is still ongoing.

In my opinion, Proton does not pose a threat to developers, Linux, or the Open Source community. While it may discourage developers from creating native Linux ports, I believe this concern is not significant. Historically, native ports have lagged behind their Windows counterparts in terms of feature parity. Even some modern Linux ports currently face issues, like Vampire Survivors, which fails to boot, or Hollow Knight and Skullgirls, which suffer from broken controller support. Keeping up with library updates on rolling release distributions, which is prevalent in most modern distros, can be challenging.

So why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

Quoting: ResshyaSo why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

Even game porter Ethan Lee made this point, on how Proton is amazing for game preservation and it is! There's no doubt lots of games that work better in Proton on Linux than on Windows. For that it's extremely valuable. Especially so because Valve can (and do) put in game-specific stuff into DXVK, Proton etc.

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: ResshyaSo why do I view Proton as a non-issue? Well, even native Windows games experience problems on Windows. Proton and Wine, on the other hand, provide a safe and reliable environment for both new and old games. For instance, Max Payne 1 and 2 currently have issues on Windows and require user scripts and fixes to function properly or boot at all. With Proton, all you need to do is click play. The community always steps up to the plate when it comes to supporting games because companies cannot be expected to maintain support forever. We are witnessing an increase in the number of source ports for older games, and I imagine this list will continue to expand exponentially over time, which makes Proton even less of a problem and more of a middle-man until a source port for said game comes along.

Even game porter Ethan Lee made this point, on how Proton is amazing for game preservation and it is! There's no doubt lots of games that work better in Proton on Linux than on Windows. For that it's extremely valuable. Especially so because Valve can (and do) put in game-specific stuff into DXVK, Proton etc.

Let's not forget that Wine itself is amazing for this. Before Proton was a thing, I was able to get the GOG version of Interstate 76 working fantastically within Wine, when you got completely wrong colors when you tried running it on Windows 7.

Quoting: slaapliedjeThe grammar of the forum is a bit weird. "gbudny replied to Proton is the only hope? plus so did 1 more people" Ha, always love programming grammar errors, where it doesn't take into account 1 = person. It's like some of the code at work where it has 1th 2th 3th 4th...

A lazy scripter like me would just drop the word people :-)

"username liked your comment on article name and so did 3 more" would suffice. Because "article name" is hypertext, it works to not put it in quotes for readability, too.

Yes well people complained before "and 3 more" or whatever was confusing, I'll never please everyone but this is entirely besides the point of the topic. There's the feedback forum for any issues :)

My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Reading through article comment threads and forum threads on this site, a lot of people have said proprietary Linux games WILL eventually stop working, because most distributions update, stop maintaining, or remove certain libraries that these proprietary games rely on in order to work.

Free Software/Open Source games rarely suffer from abandonment. If it becomes impossible to run a certain FOSS game, someone who has the time and motivation can get in contact with the developer (or whoever can commit to the code repository) and contribute their fixes in order to get the game working on modern Linux distributions.

Furthermore, I've seen a lot of people saying that a lot of games run better in Proton, but I have yet to see similar complaints about Free Software/Open Source games. And if the Linux version of a certain FOSS game isn't on par with the Windows version, someone with the tools and codebase knowledge can fix those performance issues on their own and contribute their fixes back to the main repository.

Quoting: Talon1024My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Ding... that's the crux of the matter right there. Binary software distribution does NOT play well in our environment. It's always going to be workarounds to accommodate binaries, if you can't fix and recompile.

At the end of day, we still keep playing with wine++ much, but lesser with natives. This is the way, once more how we solving a problem as industry and monopoly specific, with creating our own tools. (wine++) this is the way how OSS+Linux community works. And while we have fully working vulkan why do botter with native-openGL or native-Directx games.... lets play diablo 4 as it works while we dont have to wait proper native client for ages.
thanks to transgaming tech.

What do transgaming have to do with anything? *confused* not only are they now a real estate company, but most of what they did previously was proprietary. They're absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely semi-modern for Linux gaming.

English isn't everyone's lot in life. I think he meant "translation tech" rather than the name of a faded company :-)

If it wasn't already the name of something (or possibly other connotations of trans), "transgaming" would be a pretty good descriptive buzzword.

I homestly don't care about Native / Wine etc. because I know I may hit problems either way. I am fine as long as games work one way or another after modifications. If a game does not have native version AND does not work through Wine, that is another thing.

I recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

Quoting: Grogan

Quoting: Talon1024My opinion on this subject is that Free Software/Open Source games are the ONLY games that truly support Linux.

Ding... that's the crux of the matter right there. Binary software distribution does NOT play well in our environment. It's always going to be workarounds to accommodate binaries, if you can't fix and recompile.

Someone want to fix / recompile the original XKobo?

Quoting: missingnoI recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

I 100% agree on this. If we allow it to continue down this road... eventually MS will release a new DirectX that requires Windows 1#, Wine/Proton will be beack to playing catchup, and potentially there could be something built into it that specifically targets non-windows for breaking, and it will be a constant back and forth getting things to work.

Getting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

Quoting: slaapliedjeGetting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

Building up the userbase via the tools we have in the meantime, such that if/when developers see the sudden loss of those users it actually hurts them in the wallet, will hopefully be the way towards that. :smile:

Last edited by Pengling on 13 Jul 2023 at 3:41 pm UTC

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: missingnoI recognize the importance of Proton to help bridge a gap we sorely need right now. The state of native ports is not good, and it's unlikely to get better any time soon.

But I firmly believe it's important in the long run to actually push developers to support the platform instead of relying on a third-party compatibility layer that could break at any time and be met with "Well that's not our problem, we only develop for Windows."

And I just find it so very tiring how much backlash I constantly see towards the apparently radical idea of wanting to be supported.

Proton exists for those who don't care about official support and I'm fine with that. But I care and it's not what I want. And I'm tired of being told I'm wrong to care.

I 100% agree on this. If we allow it to continue down this road... eventually MS will release a new DirectX that requires Windows 1#, Wine/Proton will be beack to playing catchup, and potentially there could be something built into it that specifically targets non-windows for breaking, and it will be a constant back and forth getting things to work.

Getting developers to support native Linux builds is the ultimate way around this...

While true, this is something I believe I mentioned in a comment somewhere - it takes game developers multiple years to switch to a newer graphics API. Look at DX12, it's only really just now coming into its own and it was released in 2015.

I don't really see it as a big issue personally. There will be time needed for Proton to catch up for sure but it won't make anything before it suddenly stop working, and of course if / when it happens Valve will have people on it to build it. Microsoft couldn't really lock it down to Windows like you think due to the way it works, it's an API with an SDK for developers to use - just like anything else would need to be reimplemented.

Last edited by GamingOnLinux Bot on 13 Jul 2023 at 4:29 pm UTC

Part of the reason game studios hang back on DirectX is because switching to the newer API alienates more people. DirectX 9 hung on for a long time, because DX10 only worked in Vista+. DX11 only worked in Windows 7+. DX12 is only good for Windows 10+ etc. This is Microsoft trying to leverage DirectX to sell Windows. Other than asshattery, there's no technical reason why DirectX versions can't be ported other than wanting to obsolete older Windows versions. Of course other frameworks might need to be updated as well, but since when has Microsoft ever been scared of sewing more arms onto the octopus when it suits them?

That's not to say devs don't like to stick with familiar APIs too though, of course. They often like using the same engine for sequels, too.

Last edited by Grogan on 13 Jul 2023 at 4:35 pm UTC

Quoting: slaapliedjeSomeone want to fix / recompile the original XKobo?

I thought to take a look at that but the original "unix" sources are only available as naked .C and .h files, with no project files or anything. Kind of like the bare minimum for providing sources.

So I'm not going to waste my time trying to poke at it because it's non-trivial to figure out the order the files need to be built in, just to get started. It may have been over my head anyway, but not always. I don't really know until I get poking, sometimes it's just a matter of taking a look at includes and finding the right way to define things, or it could have been as trivial as distros not providing a full SDL 1.x package (I have it).

P.S. Actually the above is not true in this instance. I found an Imakefile... gotta get macros and templates in order first to see about that though.

P.P.S Nah, I got imake to generate a working Makefile, but the source is chock full of class definitions and stuff (e.g. string to char conversions and such) that just aren't valid in C++ anymore, the compiler just isn't going to do it and while you could override it with flags and attempt to proceed, it just can't work anyway. Someone could certainly fix this, but that someone isn't me. It's not just that it would be laborious, I can't do it. Again, wouldn't know until I looked at it though.

So yes (point taken?), open source software can be just as broken if nobody capable is willing to fix it :-)

Last edited by Grogan on 13 Jul 2023 at 6:47 pm UTC