Quoting: minfaer

Quoting: 3zekiel3/ With AMD, the number of time I have to go and use some copr to get latest kernel/mesa for my wife is actually much higher, and I rarely see you guys bragging about that.

This interests me. On my fedora systems with AMD cards, I have never needed any copr/third party packages. What was missing?

A few times for games, where it required very recent radv/aco. And for a bug where the screen sync was broken (strange horizontal), where a colleague who had same issue on Arch told me latest kernel solved it (and it did).
Most was stuff with android dev stuff where solution was to "update to latest driver, i.e. kernel + mesa". If it had been nvidia, I could have just updated to latest driver instead of pulling the kernel. And if it had been Intel, from my track record, there would not have been any such bugs :)

@Pj another thing I did is simply use nvidia over xrun. Is not perfect, but I actually got slightly(very slightly) better fps too (used openbox as DE for the nvidia card). And then, Intel card just run wayland.
For me I just did a quick try on second partition for the xwayland stuff since I don't wanna update main install to fedora 33 just yet, it did run gnome and a game (Atelier Ryza), did not test more than that. I expect nvidia settings is broken, and I had no gsync, did not search much more. It's true that for now xrun solution is really the best in many way, also avoid wasting electricity I guess.
Well another solution is just to use X, I did not yet face a use case where I needed wayland right now. It's true the security part interest me, but well.

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[quote=PJ][quote=Shmerl]

Quoting: PJAnd to be clear - all I am saying is that it is still not that simple. I'd love to use AMD (because of Wayland for example), but as a creative I'd be shooting myself in the foot (and yeah.... I've tried).

For wayland (well you probably mean Xwayland in fact) on fedora at least: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/XwaylandStandalone [External Link] and yes, it has code to support Nvidia.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: PJIt really depends. If you need a stable driver you won't have to uninstall/rebuild manually after each kernel update

That's exactly AMD situation (the driver is part of the kernel). Nvidia on the the other hand requires rebuilding the driver because it's not upstream and uses dkms. So tough luck if they don't support certain kernels like happened recently.

don't know for other distros, but on Fedora/Centos nvidia is using akmods, so you never have to rebuild anything yourself.
As for the kernel support:
1/ With nvidia you don't need latest kernel usually, unless you absolutely need another feature.
2/ it happened once in I don't know how long that you could not get the new one right ways... And it was mostly because of Licence stuff.
3/ With AMD, the number of time I have to go and use some copr to get latest kernel/mesa for my wife is actually much higher, and I rarely see you guys bragging about that. And no, having to use third party stuff, compiling latest stuff on a workstation OR normal desktop is not ideal/normal at all - it might be smthg you do for fun or use your own modified kernel for fsync as an example, where you know exactly what goes inside though - ... Especially not kernel and graphic stack which I'd rather be stable, so not git or stuff not tested at all by distro. For nvidia, only need to get the detached Xwayland-git package (without any of the rest of X) which as a matter of fact is semi official now.

To be perfectly fair, neither nvidia(mostly with cuda stuff, never for gaming to be fair) nor amd give the hassle free/clean road so far, both have their catch. So far for me, only Intel does give what looks like it, just igpu is not powerful enough (did I say I wait on your dgpu Intel? please do not disappoint me, please).

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Quoting: minfaer

Quoting: 3zekielRay tracing is coming, and it is to be expected that it will be ubiquitous real fast now.

But will it come before 2018 aka Wayland in production use? Oh, wait, it's already 2020! Using a 27' 4k screen, I already depend on it in production for fractional scaling.

Quoting: 3zekielAMD cards will become expensive open source paperweights before long

Until they do not offer acceleration in XWayland, NVidias cards are 'expensive closed source' paperweights for Games right NOW for me. Ofc, your situation can be different (so this is not to answer Kimyrielle's original question about there being any use, but rather to comment the fallacies in reply to it).

Even putting OSS ideals aside, what I see is NVidias driver stack more and more failing to enable a modern Linux desktop experience, not for being badly implemented, but for being at odds with the Linux model architecturally. Just look at the EGLStreams mess. If they want to address these problems, this would require NVidia to rewrite large parts of their driver in a way more compatible with Linux's model, and therefore lose the advatages they get from sharing large parts of the codebase with Windows.

They were the best on the market in the early 2010s, but AMD has integrated much better into the Linux ecosystem and is now offering the superior driver situation for general desktop use and Intel always had a good practice for Linux drivers and upstreaming graphics stuff. I'm looking forward to them joining the dGPU market.

For XWayland, Fedora team is working on it so you can use it without having to go through a copr. And yes, I agree Nvidia defo has some rough egdes. Wayland is not very useful for now, but it is coming to be. For the discharge of Nvidia, necessary code is in X11 git, but there is just no release due to Xorg becoming basically abandonware, so to set it up you have to go through copr or whatever the equivalent is on *deb distros to get it working. That being said, you also need to do the same for AMD radv/ACO drivers so ...

On other answer about RT not becoming more and more important, just look at what gamers ask on various streams, and look at how many games now support or make full use of it. For linux, it mostly needs to be enabled in vkd3d/dxvk, where Khronos made the implem fit that special need, so I expect it will come real soon, making it not much of a gimmick. I don't expect Khronos would waste time creating API that way if it was not coming - most likely there is stadia push too. DLSS is another discussion certainly, it's true I should not include it in the comparison yet.

More generally, For RT becoming ubiquitous, now all GPUs which roll out, including that of consoles will most likely be equipped. So the prerequisites are here. And it really improves stuff so...

On the other side, I'm definitely waiting on Intel new card before buying anything. Because Intel driver + potentially good RT perf, now, that would beat Nvidia all the way. Intel igpu, from a desktop/driver perspective is indeed the best in class, never had to tinker, pretty much never had any strange bugs, no kernel version limitation, full support for gpu virtualisation in consumer hw, which is a killer feature for me. Intel is certainly a perfect game on sw support, and are truly the superior option when it comes to Linux workstation (and since my machine need to do both game and work). Just hope their dgpu is good in term of hw too :)

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Quoting: Kimyrielle

As long as you're not going for 4K gaming, the GeForce RTS 3060 Ti seems like a winner, and would likely be exactly what I would be going for if I was going to be building a system.

Is there still a reason to go for NVidia rather than AMD these days? I am shopping around for a new system too, but have basically ruled out NVidia, because AMD seems to be the much better deal these days, and getting rid of their proprietary driver rubbish is an added plus.

Ray tracing is coming, and it is to be expected that it will be ubiquitous real fast now. And you can check on gamer nexus bench for RT on 3060TI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9H2PfYDFok [External Link] which will tell you why you should go nvidia from that point (for gaming at least)... And the more modern the game/RT implem, the worst it is. RT is coming to Linux too when you see all the moves around vulkan ray tracing etc. I don't know if dlss will come to linux/dxvk etc too, I certainly hope so (and I suspect from leaks dlss 3.0 is near and will bring dlss to most games...), and then this will be a massive burial.
As such, unless you plan to change card in 1 year, you should not look at raster performance, but at more interesting RT, and nvidia utterly dominates here, a 400€ card is better than the 700€ card for AMD. Also, AMD MSRP is a total lie, and even when they are in stock, I don't expect to see any card at less than 100€ more than msrp or not before a very long time, making it not much of a sweet deal in the end. At least nvidia has founder editions to control the price.
Also, whether we like it or not (I don't but well), CUDA is here to stay too... And CUDA is Nvidia. Now, the experience is certainly better than opencl overall, so I'm not gonna blame anyone for staying on CUDA/Nvidia either. Just it is a pain in the ass to setup sometimes... That is smthg I'd love for Nvidia to open source more the framework so we can use/install it more easily.

Now, AMD has open source driver, which is a big pro, and I wish Nvidia could finally open at least the kernel module. But without RT perf to back it, AMD cards will become expensive open source paperweights before long, and for compute, it lacks CUDA, so is basically non existant.

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Quoting: MilaniumI bought a TUXEDO Book XP1610 and have really bad experience with built quality (the keyboard keys losen on press, not okay for a 2k€ notebook) and Linux support. NVIDIA drivers in their repositories were always outdated and external monitor breaks on every update. Their support was also not helpful at all: they only tell you to reformat your system and downgrade distribution when problems arise. Is the Infinity series any better? Otherwise, my next laptop will most likely be Lenovo Thinkpad again.

Quoting: MilaniumI bought a TUXEDO Book XP1610 and have really bad experience with built quality (the keyboard keys losen on press, not okay for a 2k€ notebook) and Linux support. NVIDIA drivers in their repositories were always outdated and external monitor breaks on every update. Their support was also not helpful at all: they only tell you to reformat your system and downgrade distribution when problems arise. Is the Infinity series any better? Otherwise, my next laptop will most likely be Lenovo Thinkpad again.

At work, we have a few Gen5 infinity book, and so far so good. not too much flex, battery last very long, screen is good. Keyboard has a good feel too.
I'm personally just disappointed by the soldered ram stick (still one free slot). I'm still thinking of what to get as my next laptop. I will see if if they have a 15" with lightweight magnesium housing and not soldered ram. If so, might jump on it.

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Quoting: rustybroomhandle

Quoting: 3zekiel

Quoting: omer666Be assured that as soon as it's released natively on Linux, it's an insta-buy for me.

Same here, and I have good hope it will support RTX! For when I finally can land an rtx 3080 in 2022 :)

Their port uses dxvk so this would be dependent on whether dxvk is getting raytracing support soon.

I wonder, since it has been so long, is it really dependant on dxvk, or was it just a step ? Because if you have dxvk, you can iron out all the rest first, then port the graphic pipeline no ? I'm fairly curious if they will really use in the end.

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yaaaaaaaayyyyyy
Was waiting on that for Atelier Ryza & Crystar which looks way better with some vibrance on color and SMAA + CAS

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Quoting: omer666Be assured that as soon as it's released natively on Linux, it's an insta-buy for me.

Same here, and I have good hope it will support RTX! For when I finally can land an rtx 3080 in 2022 :)

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: robertosf92Isn't stadia build on top of Debian?

Yes, doesn't change what I said in the previous comment though. Developers have to account for all types of hardware, and a multitude of distributions some of which do genuinely cause issues for games, on top of the 1% market share for desktop Linux. Stadia likely already has a far bigger share of users, and developers only target 1 thing.

On that point, do you think we should push flatpak'd steam ? I mean use it ourselves + make all people we know use it/ make noise etc ? Because that would technically be one perform (minus the kernel). Even more pushed than Steam runtime.

I do agree it is easier to develop/support for one platform, discrepancy between distros are not very big usually, but you often run on those stupid issues that break binary compat, perfect example is .so.version management which is not always the same. Every time between ubuntu and centos/fedora, I get hit by gcc/libmpfr .so.versions stuff, where binary compat in itself is perfect but linker can't find the lib because of that... I wish on that distros would make some effort, ubuntu is a particular nightmare for this stuff, as Fedora/centos are at least coherent between versions... It is already painful for me with embedded dev projects which do not have a crazy number of dependencies, and where we can always recompile (but it add support burden), so for game dev I would imagine it to be nerve breaking very fast.

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