Quoting: Yulike

Quoting: CheesenessCan't wait to see how the rest of this bundle plays out. I've got my fingers crossed that Linux gamers will edge out Mac OS gamers in terms of revenue ^_^

I wouldn't be surprised if we beat them on sales too, it's already pretty close with 12 days left. It leaves me to wonder, will The Cave be added in the second week?

With The Cave being published by Sega, that seems less likely to happen than stuff they wholly control.

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Quoting: AnonymousAh, well that sums it up. You miss the point entirely, and can't even see how you've missed it when notified, because you're thinking on a different scale.

That doesn't mean that anybody who says something else is missing the point you're making, just that they consider the different scale to be more important or relevant.

I can see what it is you're saying, but your arguments don't seem to recognise the broader implications that combining Wine usage figures with native Linux usage figures would have for the industry's perception of Linux as a viable gaming platform.

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Super happy to be supporting this one :D

Can't wait to see how the rest of this bundle plays out. I've got my fingers crossed that Linux gamers will edge out Mac OS gamers in terms of revenue ^_^

For anybody who's been wondering what's up with my Humble stats pages, this bundle saw some pretty significant markup changes on Humble's side which I couldn't sort out until I got home from work. Stuff is up [External Link] now though, and this bundle's climbing rapidly.

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Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: CheesenessWhilst stats of Wine users as a separate metric may be of value in some respects, I think it would undermine the efforts and recognition of people actually running native software if the numbers were to be mixed with people running software that pretended to be Windows

Yes, that is my point. Thanks. Oh wait...

Ah, no. You misunderstand. I think it would undermine the efforts and recognition of people actually running native software if the numbers of people running native software were mixed with people running software that pretended to be Windows.

Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: Cheesenessand in the end make for less accurate data rather than more accurate as you claim.

So I say if I'm using wine, that I should count as linux. You say that wine stats should not be mixed with windows stats, which seems to be in agreement with me. Then you say I'm wrong? How does that work?

No, I'm saying that Wine user stats should not be mixed with Linux user stats, that they should be included in Windows stats, and that there would be value in having an entirely separate measurement of Wine vs native Windows users.

Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: CheesenessIMO, championing Wine usage stats is a trap.

Which is why there shouldn't be any. It should count as linux, because that's the OS you're running. Who, besides you, ever mentioned such a thing as stats for wine?

You (or another Anonymous user) did:

Quoting: AnonymousTo save time, let me just tell you that a company questioning whether or not to port a game to linux would want to know how many potential new customers they could get for their efforts. In that respect, someone running a linux OS is what matters. The fact that a gamer is using a workaround to play something is irrelevant in the course of having accurate data to base that decision on.

Please refer to my previous post for reasons why this reasoning may be flawed (namely, that from a business perspective, if a Linux user has already bought a game, they don't represent a new market that a native version would gain sales from).

Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: HamishWe need to show that there is a native market on Linux if they are going to be convinced to make a change.

THAT

IS

MY

POINT

Are you certain that that is your point? Hamish is saying that we need to show that there is a market of people who don't use Wine, something that would be misrepresented by the presence of Wine users in the Linux Steam stats.

Quoting: AnonymousWhy do you keep twisting it and telling me I've got everything ass backwards, then espouse the exact same thing I just said? What is wrong with both of you?

Nothing is wrong with either of us - in fact, we're being awfully patient with what is coming across as a very abrasive attitude :)

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Quoting: AnonymousTo save time, let me just tell you that a company questioning whether or not to port a game to linux would want to know how many potential new customers they could get for their efforts. In that respect, someone running a linux OS is what matters. The fact that a gamer is using a workaround to play something is irrelevant in the course of having accurate data to base that decision on. If linux is their os, then linux is what should be reported. Otherwise the real numbers are watered down by people using workarounds like wine, thus ultimately delaying or completely preventing linux ports because it looks like no one is using the OS.

Now, if you'd like to be less confrontational about this very simple concept, I'd be happy to clarify anything that still eludes you.

I can't really speak for Hamish, but he certainly didn't come across as confrontational or lacking insight to me.

Whilst stats of Wine users as a separate metric may be of value in some respects, I think it would undermine the efforts and recognition of people actually running native software if the numbers were to be mixed with people running software that pretended to be Windows, and in the end make for less accurate data rather than more accurate as you claim.

I think the assumption that Wine usage would convince a developer to support Linux is flawed. From a business perspective, if you already have Linux users buying your non-native titles, then that's a market already satisfied without the overheads of porting, extra support or testing. It would take a more insightful publisher/dev studio than most to believe that native support was worth the effort.

IMO, championing Wine usage stats is a trap.

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Quoting: MowsThe big question I have is the way this is calculated. I was playing a lot of New Vegas in April using WINE. Does that count me incorrectly as a windows user since I was having to run the windows version of steam to play it?

These metrics are useless until we know how accurately they're being compiled.

A number of Steam users are prompted to voluntarily participate in the survey each month. If you didn't receive a prompt to participate, then your details are not included in the results. There's a summary window prior to submission which lists all of the information collected. When running in Wine, this shows the Windows version that Wine is configured to emulate as the operating system version (whether this is incorrect is definitely debatable :) ).

If you're looking for more reading, I've compiled all the solid information that I've been able to find here [External Link].

Edit: Wine and Gecko are listed as installed software, but it's unclear as to whether or not this has any bearing in the results seen on the Steam website - I'd hazard a guess and say none.

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Quoting: Bumadar

Quoting: CheesenessWhat about Valve's offerings? They currently have more titles available on Steam for Linux than any other developer, and with the Team Fortress and Counter Strike franchises still having very healthy player bases, it seems like that's worth noting as appealing (though I can understand if those titles aren't of interest to you personally).

Don't see those as new AAA titles, sorry and yes your right I don't care about them personally as I am not into online shooters :)

Ah, OK. I didn't realise that you were looking for both new *and* AAA.

Out of interest, what non-online (both TF and CS are playable via LAN as well, I believe) new AAA titles would you like to see on Linux?

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Quoting: Bumadar- only close to new AAA title so far has been serious sam 3, and I loved it but beyond that there is nothing on steam that I can't get/have on desura or from a direct download page.

What about Valve's offerings? They currently have more titles available on Steam for Linux than any other developer, and with the Team Fortress and Counter Strike franchises still having very healthy player bases, it seems like that's worth noting as appealing (though I can understand if those titles aren't of interest to you personally).

That said, as I noted in my SteamLUG post, April was definitely pretty quiet month, and I think possibly the first since Steam for Linux's launch that we hadn't seen a single Valve title released. I still run Wine to play a bunch of games, and as I said before, people are getting prompted to participate in the survey whilst not running the native client.

Quoting: RustyboltsAnyway on the results page it says this :

Why do many of the Steam Hardware Survey numbers seem to undergo a significant change in April 2012?

Yeah, the sampling seems to be random rather than geared towards covering everybody over a 12 month period. It's easy to go missed. I've been prompted three times since that sampling bug was identified (that notice has been up on the survey results page for 12 months now).

I'm that note, I'm currently talking with someone from Valve about whether or not we can get more transparency so far as their methodology goes. I don't hold out much hope, but since the more granular survey results breaking down the Other category appeared after a conversation with the same person, there's always a possibility ^_^

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It's come to my attention that some have taken offence from my comments in this thread. Apologies to anybody who did - that was certainly not my intention :)

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Quoting: liamdaweAs usual i disagree cheese, since we are talking single digit percantages here a .13% decline and a decline two months in a row is a negative.

Nothing sensationalist about it.

How can anything be "holding steady" when in decline two months in a row?!

I'll have a SteamLUG post with some alternative interpretations up in a moment, but in the meantime, consider that since this month's drop is much less than last month's, things could be interpreted as levelling out. The kinds of numbers we are talking about aren't worth making a fuss over though - we're talking about a number that is just over 1/1000th of survey respondents. It's statistically insignificant, and it's more than appropriate to call these minor fluctuations "holding steady".

Calling them "poor" is most definitely an overreaction.

Edit: Here we go [External Link].

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