It does look rather cool.

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I like the look, it's cute. I'm more of a single-player kind of guy, though.

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That's a very clever approach. And the trailer describing it is very stylish.

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Can I join the strikers?
(Not really a big fan of serving Patriarchs)

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Quoting: GrazenWell, we’ll have to agree to disagree on both points. On your first point, selling below cost, that’s called dumping and that is clearly not what Valve is doing and your example is completely irrelevant.

Are you for real? You made a claim about what it means for something to be anti-competitive. I refuted that claim. That's what it's relevant to.

And in the second point, you made a claim that these (alleged) license terms of Steam's would cause lower prices. I refuted that claim, and showed how it was in fact the reverse of that. So when you came back to me you sidestepped that whole thing to say that they're just good because Steam is good and letting other stores undersell them would be bad. Maybe, but that's not at all what you were saying before. You are not arguing in good faith.

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I'm all for this in theory, but I gotta say when I watched the little video the first thing I thought was "Whoa, that is butt-ugly!" and the second was "What's going on, on this screen, anyway?"
Neither of those strike me as a good omen for me wanting to use that desktop environment. Think I'll stick to Mate.

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Quoting: randylAnd I don't know how to say this without insulting other DEs

You clearly don't! :grin:

, but to me only Gnome and KDE are robust enough to even consider.

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Quoting: redneckdrowI'm really glad it's finally happening, but I wonder just how necessary the switch to Wayland actually is. Dedoimedo [External Link] released a rather thoughtful article on the subject, and I tend to agree with him on several points.

Warning! Grumpy lecturing ahead:

Spoiler, click me

Yes X's old code is a possible attack vector, but I don't know of any attacks ever targeting the display server in all the time I've been using Linux. Most attacks/malware seem to be aimed at headless servers and tend to be tailor made to exploit out of date installations. Besides, Wayland could have its own security concerns to deal with.

I don't get the need to reinvent the wheel here.

The desktop user just needs to be careful not to run scripts without checking them for things that look out of place. They're typically pathetically obvious even to people like me who know next to nothing about scripting. Also, never symlink libraries or put old libraries in /usr/lib or other global directories, that can lead to some real haberdashery.

Also, if you can help it, don't run GUI programs as root (pkexec doesn't work correctly with every program) anyway. Wayland does seem to protect the user from this gotcha, from what I read; I'll give it that at least.

Is there any reason to use Wayland other than the perception of security for the end user? I can't get a straight answer. Does XWayland still have any noticeable overhead when gaming? I'll give it a try when the new NVIDIA driver goes stable.

All things considered, I'll give Wayland a fair shake. I'll probably post my experience in the forums. If you've read this far, thank you. It took me 30 minutes to type this with my one good hand, and I appreciate it. :smile:

I just read that article; it strikes me as a bit of a strawman. It claims that the only reasons for developing Wayland were security and, I dunno, novelty or something. As I understand it, there actually are quite a few things that X is not good at doing or not capable of doing because it is so antiquated, which some people wanted done, and which Wayland was built to be able to do. So whether those things are in your use-case or not, they do exist and are part of the point of Wayland--characterizing it as an inadequate replacement whose only point is security, is fundamentally inaccurate. And really, considering that the people who do Wayland are also the people who used to do X, it seems to me fairly unlikely that they would have gone to the effort of starting a whole new thing just for hypothetical security.

Rather, in real life there seem to have been many efforts to give X upgrades and overhauls to deal with various issues, and the developers finally hit a wall where they didn't see any way forward except to start fresh. I'm not a techie, but on a non-techie level I've been following all this for many years, and it seems the problem is that how applications, graphics cards and their drivers and so on want to interact with screens has changed a lot since X was first written; the whole paradigm just doesn't apply any more and getting it to pretend gradually became kludge upon kludge upon kludge.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: redneckdrowIs there any reason to use Wayland other than the perception of security for the end user?

X is entirely and completely unmaintained. Its known flaws will never be fixed; flaws discovered in the future will never be fixed. The people that used to work on it don't want to any more, and only work on Wayland now. Xorg 1.21 hasn't been released because there's no one interested enough to do so. It's kicked the bucket, shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined the choir invisible.

This . . . is an ex-X!

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I'm kind of with TheSHEEEP on this. Stallman had stuff to apologize for. So yes, he should have apologized. And he did in fact apologize. And unlike a lot of people, there is no way in Hell Stallman would ever apologize for anything if he didn't mean it; in fact I'm not sure I've ever heard of him apologizing for anything before. And he says he intends to do better. I want to give him the chance to show he can, partly because he is if nothing else a very honest man and partly because he's the originator of Free Software, the whole list CatKiller mentions wouldn't exist without him, and I'll feel like a real dick if my attitude is all "But what have you done for us lately?"

When it comes to the criminal justice system, I believe in calmer more European approaches which reduce re-offending much more than the harsh no-second-chances, throw away the key American system. I think to be consistent I shouldn't back the idea that someone, once socially fallen, must be socially poison forever.

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