Quoting: lqe5433I still prefer open-source engines (like doom 3), or Feral ported games to Wine. I believe it will never work flawlessly.

Well, it is supposed to be (non-)emulating Windows, after all. Working flawlessly would be quite inaccurate. ;)

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That strikes me as one of those oh-my-god-let-me-set-everyone-straight posts that has the opposite effect from what it intends. But everyone's about out of energy so it might not matter.

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Quoting: Patola

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Patola

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: anewsonPro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Nope.
Read the CoC.
It does not center on abusive behavior. It focuses on vaguely-termed abusive persons. It does not tell people not to write racist/sexist/etc. posts. It tells they can not be racist/sexist/etc. Wording is important. This potentially empowers moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices in other domains, apart from the linux kernel. This is an enormous difference.

Hmmm. Where [External Link]? All the language in the Contibutor Covenant, the template CoC adopted by the Linux Foundation, focuses squarely on behaviours. There's no mention of "abusive persons" and no language that I personally find to be vague. Well, no actually there is one "catch all" phrase at the end which could be an issue: "Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting". I have no idea if the Linux Foundation left that in though.

So I'm curious how you see that this could possibly "empower moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices". The examples of behaviour are cut and dried. And there's only five of them? Read for yourself.

Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:

• The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances



• Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks


• Public or private harassment


• Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic address, without explicit permission


• Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting

Seriously, have you read the right CoC, or have the Linux Foundation added a bunch of stuff that I don't know about??

EDIT: Nope, the Linux Foundation adopted the core template pretty much as is, as far as I can tell. [Read for yourself [External Link].]

You are correct.
I apologize for it and I am fixing it wherever I said that.
An explanation is warranted. At the time of the CoC, I opened a lot of tabs for the reading materials. Amongst them, many were for other CoCs. Although I can't recall which one (I am typing on my cellphone, which doesn't have the reference), it seems I confused Linux's CoC with a CoC from another project. If you still doubt my honesty on this issue, I can try and get which CoC it was after I get a hold of my main computer in about two days.

Even though it is hard to admit a mistake, I am myself relieved that this specific criticism was unwarranted. I don't want to worry more than what I already am with all these social engineering initiatives.

That was very handsomely said.

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Quoting: Patola

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: anewsonPro CoC wants to change the norms around abusive behaviour and language in the kernel dev community (which goes right up to Torvalds). Con CoC is worried this empowers moderators to exclude developers who don't share their ideological views. The former goal is laudible, and the latter concern is justified (eg Johnathan Haidt's work on academia).

This CoC simply codifies the powers Linux maintainers have had all along. The "Con CoC" crowd seem to have trouble understanding this basic fact. Could be because they'd rather just keep fighting the scary SJW cabal that keeps taking away their toys.

Nope.
Read the CoC.
It does not center on abusive behavior. It focuses on vaguely-termed abusive persons. It does not tell people not to write racist/sexist/etc. posts. It tells they can not be racist/sexist/etc. Wording is important. This potentially empowers moderators to expel people based on their own personal choices in other domains, apart from the linux kernel. This is an enormous difference.

That seemed like a significant objection. Except, scaine has made clear (plus I followed scaine's link and did read it) that you turn out to be completely wrong. As you were on the Canadian supposed "wrong pronoun-->jail" legislation. Whatever your sources are on this kind of thing, I think you need to start doubting them.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: DolusYou know damn well what the tiki torch is a dog whistle for. Even if you're not an American. Don't play coy.

Ahh, yes, I know that arrogance. Presuming the whole world is exactly the same as your own experiences. I've said twice that I don't understand the reference. I've not seen that movie (and it does look like it's a still from a movie, but it could be a play for all I know, or random Internet meme that I've not seen).

So grow up a little and stop acting like a spoiled child.

The specific reference is the opposite of the point. The point is that in the absence of the specific reference, it looks like one of those weenie white supremacist neo-nazi types who parade in the US with tiki-torches (because they can't get real ones) and have been increasing significantly in visibility in the US in recent years. There are similar types on the rise in many countries in Europe. They've been all over the friggin' headlines ever since Trump was elected; whether there are actually any more of them or whether this is largely a media narrative thing is unclear to me. But they are there, they are nasty, and they certainly all object strenuously to "SJWs". So if you take someone who is complaining about a Code of Conduct and, strenuously, about a person who is being described as an "SJW", and you say they look like that, then in the absence of whatever specific meme, you're calling them a neo-nazi. Sure, maybe it looks a little silly to be a real neo-nazi, but there are some pretty silly-looking real neo-nazis out there.
I would say it was that post with the picture which, at best, arrogantly assumed everyone had the same experience. I have no idea what the specific reference is supposed to be either; the person said it was a character who was some sort of ironic fake neo-nazi and so it's OK. I have no reason to doubt that it really was that character, but I'm not at all so clear that that makes it OK, and only partly because I don't know who the hell the character is.

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Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I have not linked ANY Twitter posts so far. What are you talking about.

Apologies--I must be conflating some of your posts with other people who have been complaining big time about this Coraline and linking to her tweets.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.

Well, hrm, yeah, but I still thought it was in pretty bad taste. And all that context that was invoked was retroactive--sure, I believe it was there, more or less, but it wasn't specified with the original offending post, and it wasn't specified IMO precisely to leave the non-ironic resonances intact. I would get seriously pissed off if someone did something like that one to me and I would not be appeased by a "where's your sense of humour?"
I did think it was crossing the line and I'm glad Liam took it down. It was exactly the kind of thing that a Code of Conduct (or in this case a good moderator) should stop. Just because I find Dolus to be a poor and aggressive communicator doesn't mean suddenly anything goes in communicating back.

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Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guytuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

That really, really, really isn't how your comments to this point have been sounding. The general tenor has been along the "all limits on how people can talk in lists are nefarious SJW plots cuz they're out to get us" lines.
If that's your opinion you might have made it clear, oh, somewhere around the time a bunch of the people you were arguing with expressed that exact same opinion while you were going off on them.
So what's all the heat about then? Do you have some kind of old personal vendetta going with this Coraline person or something?

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Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

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Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: baccilusThat is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

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