Latest Comments by Doc Angelo
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
23 Apr 2018 at 6:18 pm UTC
23 Apr 2018 at 6:18 pm UTC
The Backup/Restore-Wizard is a tool within Steam. You don't have to use this feature to back up your games. You can backup any game by just copying/compressing the game folder. DRMed games won't work without Steam, of course. But the ones without DRM do.
The only thing that is left are the different interpretations of the vague TOS of both Steam and GOG.
One thing to consider: If developers/publisher would know that the user wouldn't be allowed to play their game without a Steam account anyway, why would they choose to not use DRM? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The only thing that is left are the different interpretations of the vague TOS of both Steam and GOG.
One thing to consider: If developers/publisher would know that the user wouldn't be allowed to play their game without a Steam account anyway, why would they choose to not use DRM? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 8:02 pm UTC Likes: 3
Edit because of your edit:
This is how I see it: The games are neither owned by the user nor Steam/GOG. The developer/publisher is the only one actually owning the game in its entirety. If a developer/publisher releases a game without DRM, they are OK with you to back up this game and use it however you want for personal usage.
22 Apr 2018 at 8:02 pm UTC Likes: 3
Quoting: ShmerlYes, they can revoke your right, but I don't really see in their TOS a clear explanation if it applies retroactively to what you already paid for.Yeah, it's rather vague. I just read those parts of Steams subscriber agreement in my native tongue, and it's the same. Steam and GOG could do a better job in explaining this better.
Edit because of your edit:
So they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).It certainly suggests it, but it's still not clear. In this case, they specifically mean the access to services and games, which would be the possibility to download them. The part I quoted sounds a little bit different.
This is how I see it: The games are neither owned by the user nor Steam/GOG. The developer/publisher is the only one actually owning the game in its entirety. If a developer/publisher releases a game without DRM, they are OK with you to back up this game and use it however you want for personal usage.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 7:52 pm UTC Likes: 1
Valve defines "Subscriptions and Content+Services" as follows:
For me, this sounds a little vague. This could either mean that you are not allowed to access those things through the Steam client after termination of agreement. Or it could mean how you interpret it: That you are not even allowed to use the content (the game, not the subscription), even if you have the game on your disk and it can be executed.
GOG defines "GOG Content" as follows:
22 Apr 2018 at 7:52 pm UTC Likes: 1
Quoting: Shmerlhttp://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/Thanks for providing those passages. English is not my native tongue, and for the most part, I have a hard time understanding what's going on in such terms.
Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms).This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.They quite clearly say a few key points here:
1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.
That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.
2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.
I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.
All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.
Valve defines "Subscriptions and Content+Services" as follows:
Quoting: ValveB. Subscriptions; Content and ServicesIf I understand correctly, "Content and Services" are the games, virtual items, mods and updates for any of those. A "Subscription" is the right to access those things through the Steam client.
As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services”; the rights to access and/or use any Contents and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."
For me, this sounds a little vague. This could either mean that you are not allowed to access those things through the Steam client after termination of agreement. Or it could mean how you interpret it: That you are not even allowed to use the content (the game, not the subscription), even if you have the game on your disk and it can be executed.
GOG defines "GOG Content" as follows:
Quoting: GOGwhen we're talking about games, in-game content, virtual items or currency or GOG videos or other content which you can purchase or access via GOG services, we’ll just call them “GOG games” or “GOG videos” respectively and when we talk about them all together they are “GOG content”.Further down in GOGs User Agreement, it is stated:
Quoting: GOG2. USING GOG.COM AND GOG CONTENTI understand this in this way: They grant us the license to download and use content. This license can be revoked. Do I understand this correctly?
2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 6:57 pm UTC Likes: 7
You say that the Steam TOS does forbid this. Can you provide the passage in the TOS about this?
22 Apr 2018 at 6:57 pm UTC Likes: 7
Quoting: ShmerlDRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.But you can make backup of the DRM free games on Steam. What would prevent you from doing it? Those games have no DRM in them, so they never check for anything. You can just back them up, copy them, move the folder anywhere... it doesn't matter. The games will just work.
DRM-free services explicitly provide downloadable packages for that. If they close down tomorrow, you can still use them to install games you paid for. Steam does not. And Steam explicitly requires you to use it to re-install what you bought. It would be a violation of their TOS to make manual backup and bypass their installation.
You say that the Steam TOS does forbid this. Can you provide the passage in the TOS about this?
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 6:48 pm UTC Likes: 6
Following this definition, some of the games on Steam are not restricted by DRM.
Apart from that, after being installed, every DRM free game can be copied and shared freely without any restrictions. That is true for GOG and Steam.
GOG Galaxy is a nice tool if you want automatic updates for your games. Steam also provides this. There are good reasons for a dedicated game management client.
But DRM free games on Steam don't have this problem. You can copy, share and execute them no matter what. DRM free games on Steam don't need the offline mode. Just go to the directory and execute the main game binary. Done.
22 Apr 2018 at 6:48 pm UTC Likes: 6
Quoting: CyrilThis : https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management [External Link] and the FAQ [External Link]From this page: "When a program is designed to prevent you from copying or sharing a song, reading an ebook on another device, or playing a single-player game without an Internet connection, you are being restricted by DRM."
Following this definition, some of the games on Steam are not restricted by DRM.
Quoting: CyrilThe problem there is... With GOG you can download your game on their website OR with Galaxy. With Steam you don't have that choice, you HAVE TO install their client on your PC and then download/install your games.I think it would be possible to do this. Steam would then take the latest update of the game, package it and distribute the game files along with an executable installer. That is pretty much what GOG does. You don't get the original/vanilla game files. You get a GOG installer with all games files incorporated in it. With Steam, the installer is incorporated in the Steam client. You need to download it before you can download a game. With GOG, you need to download the installer every time you download a game on their website. In both cases, you need to provide your credentials in order to download the game.
Why you can't download a game on their website, it is too much complicated for them?
Apart from that, after being installed, every DRM free game can be copied and shared freely without any restrictions. That is true for GOG and Steam.
GOG Galaxy is a nice tool if you want automatic updates for your games. Steam also provides this. There are good reasons for a dedicated game management client.
Quoting: CyrilAnd (tell me if i'm wrong) you can't use Steam all the time in Offline mode.I think you can, but not every game works in offline mode. But I'm not really sure on this one. However, I regularly start games without an internet connection on my laptop, and I rarely have problems with this. I think some games require you to start them at least once with a connection, but after this they work just fine in offline mode. But again, I'm not entirely sure on this one.
But DRM free games on Steam don't have this problem. You can copy, share and execute them no matter what. DRM free games on Steam don't need the offline mode. Just go to the directory and execute the main game binary. Done.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 5:32 pm UTC Likes: 10
22 Apr 2018 at 5:32 pm UTC Likes: 10
Quoting: Comandante ÑoñardoCan you move these games [External Link] to another of your machines using an external HDD?Yes, you can.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 4:41 pm UTC
22 Apr 2018 at 4:41 pm UTC
Quoting: Comandante ÑoñardoNo! GOG Galaxy client is OPTIONAL for to download the games, Steam client is MANDATORY for to download the games...This is correct. I just included Galaxy because it's an available option. I didn't mean to compare Galaxy directly to Steam in that regard, because it doesn't really have to do with DRM on the games.
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 3:50 pm UTC Likes: 12
The Steam client is the very same as GOG Galaxy or the GOG website. You can buy and download games. Valve has their own DRM implementation (part of Steamworks), but it's completely optional. As a developer or publisher, you don't have to use the DRM tools provided by Steam, or your own DRM. You can just not use any DRM and still have your game on Steam.
http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games [External Link]
22 Apr 2018 at 3:50 pm UTC Likes: 12
Quoting: MaelraneSteam itself is DRM.I don't think so. But maybe we have different definitions of what DRM means.
Albeit it's the only one I accept and can live with, it is, per definition, DRM.
The Steam client is the very same as GOG Galaxy or the GOG website. You can buy and download games. Valve has their own DRM implementation (part of Steamworks), but it's completely optional. As a developer or publisher, you don't have to use the DRM tools provided by Steam, or your own DRM. You can just not use any DRM and still have your game on Steam.
http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games [External Link]
Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve
22 Apr 2018 at 3:29 pm UTC Likes: 6
22 Apr 2018 at 3:29 pm UTC Likes: 6
Valve can still release the game on Steam without DRM protection. Half-Life 2 is DRM free for example.
Devil Daggers, the addictive fast-paced FPS is now on GOG
10 Apr 2018 at 8:16 pm UTC Likes: 1
10 Apr 2018 at 8:16 pm UTC Likes: 1
Quoting: EndeavourAccuracyMakes watching the replays (example [External Link]) great.What the heck... that was... extreme.
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