Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: F.UltraGood luck ty a Fortnite vs Apple suit was because Apple forced Fortnite to use their payment system for in app purchases. So far I have no idea how this somehow makes LupertEverett:s comment that both Sony and Apple take 30% incorrect.

Here I empahsised the relevant parts of the quotes.

Quoting: LupertEverettThe fee, that is... 30%...

You know... the same amount Sony and Apple also gets, yet somehow it is only Steam who is constantly put on target for it.

It's all about the 30%. But since you're conveniently omitting the EU DSA from your argumwnt shows me that you obviously already got it.

Quoting: pbYou absolutely can. There are lots of DRM-free games on steam and downloading the files is the only thing you need to do in order to run them. Obviously you can't do that with games relying on Steam DRM (at least not without using workarounds), but that's something the developer put in there, and not valve. Valve does not require any kind of DRM for games sold on Steam.

Games in Steam are always DRMed (you cannot start the game twice via Steam). Even if the publisher provides it DRM free.

yes? Again none of this, including the DSA, have anything to do with the 30% that is under discussion. Also the Fortnite vs Apple have no releveance for Steam since Steam does not have the same "you must use our payment platform for in-app purchases" as Apple have. I still fail to understand what point you are trying to make here?

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Caldathras

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Caldathras

Quoting: pb

Quoting: drenAgain this is misleading. Once you download your game from GOG, you can completely remove them from the scenario of installation at all. You have the files, you can install it on as many computers as you want and you don't have to login to play the game. You absolutely cannot do that with Steam.

You absolutely can. There are lots of DRM-free games on steam and downloading the files is the only thing you need to do in order to run them. Obviously you can't do that with games relying on Steam DRM (at least not without using workarounds), but that's something the developer put in there, and not valve. Valve does not require any kind of DRM for games sold on Steam.

Have you read the link you provided? Steamcmd is nothing like a GOG offline installer. You are not downloading the game installer through Steamcmd, you are installing the game! It is just an incredibly convoluted command line version of the Steam client (for which, the client is likely the GUI). Yes, you can run some of the games without the client but that does NOT make it the equivalent of an offline installer. There is one fundamental difference: if you lose Internet access or Valve's servers go down, you cannot install the game!

This is not entirely true. Once a game have been downloaded but before it has been installed, there is a game installer.exe in the game path. If the game is released DRM free by the publisher you can copy this .exe to wherever you like and install it there instead.

Quoting: dren

Quoting: pb

Quoting: drenAgain this is misleading. Once you download your game from GOG, you can completely remove them from the scenario of installation at all. You have the files, you can install it on as many computers as you want and you don't have to login to play the game. You absolutely cannot do that with Steam.

You absolutely can. There are lots of DRM-free games on steam and downloading the files is the only thing you need to do in order to run them. Obviously you can't do that with games relying on Steam DRM (at least not without using workarounds), but that's something the developer put in there, and not valve. Valve does not require any kind of DRM for games sold on Steam.

@Caldathras is absolutely correct. GOG provides standalone executable installers, steam has no such feature. Games being DRM-free on steam isn't normal. Devs can and sometimes do add Steamworks DRM after initial releases, etc. The permanence of the Steam install being DRM-free isn't there. Also the Steam installation doesn't include other necessary dependencies, such as DirectX or C++ redistributables, that are included as part of an actual installer. Steam also doesn't advertise or tell you which games are DRM-free. On GOG EVERY game is DRM-free with all dependencies included as part of the installer (both Windows and Linux). In a lot of cases, these DRM-free directories still need the Steam client to act as a wrapper or handle activation. With GOG, you don't even need to use Galaxy, you can just download the installer from the website and install it where you want. This is why Heroic is able to provide direct access to your GOG library and is able to install everything you need for a game. It just feels like you are trying to make an equivalency argument that isn't actually equivalent.

But they do (if the game publisher have decided to release their game DRM free on Steam). In that case there is a perfectly fine old time .exe installer at the game location in Steam.

Well, see, this is an important tidbit of information. I was not aware of that. Here's a question or two. Does the installer remain on your system after the game is installed? If not, with the installation being automated, how do you get to that installer and back it up before it is removed?

Finally, while this is closer to parity with GOG's offline installers, it is still not the same. It is more like obtaining the installer through the back door whereas GOG is giving it to you upfront. At best, it is a loophole in the process. Most people are not going to be aware of this factoid, so few would be able to take advantage of it.

Thank you for telling me about it, though.

I think it gets removed, but then I also think that this all is 100% up to the game dev on how to handle. E.g most games have decided to use the DRM of Steam so... Then also many seam to provide a snapshot of an installed game instead of the installer but for those I'm quite confident that you could just zip the entire folder and unzip to a different folder/machine, as long as the game hasn't opted in to the DRM ofc.

I have at times installed a game in Steam only to then launch it via Lutris since I needed different versions of proton/dxvk/xx than what Steam provided, in the end it is all files.

This is not to say that GOG:s way isn't better here, atleast for the DRM part, the Steam way is ofc better for getting automatic updates and so on.

Quoting: Caldathras

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBy which you agree that yes, it is a tax.

Not at all. Taxation is something done by government (usually on net earnings, property values and/or final purchase price). It is a gross misinterpretation of the meaning of "profit" to associate it with taxes.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBut anyway. How much profit?

What gives the public the right to tell any business how much profit they are allowed to make? As long as the business pays its taxes, it's none of the public's business. Yes, most countries have laws to deal with monopolies, but Valve is NOT a monopoly. You said so yourself.

How much experience do you have with business operations? Not that you likely care but I have nearly 35 years of practical business experience in all aspects of retail operations (not that corporate bureaucratic nonsense they teach at academic institutions). From your comments here, your knowledge of business practices and business math seems rather lacking. What you are talking about has nothing to do with the retail distribution channel, which is what governs Valve's business model (and any retailer, for that matter).

I don't want to go into a point by point analysis, so this is the last I'm going to say about this matter. You are, after all, entitled to your own opinion, whether or not I agree with it.

As always, it was good debating with you ...

Well in the sense that the public at large is the government, they are by definition the only thing that allows the business to exist in the first place and therefore also have a say in how they conduct their affairs. One such say is e.g outlawing predatory and unfair pricing.

The main issue is instead (in my view) that no one so far have managed to prove that 30% is either unfair or predatory.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Caldathras

Quoting: pb

Quoting: drenAgain this is misleading. Once you download your game from GOG, you can completely remove them from the scenario of installation at all. You have the files, you can install it on as many computers as you want and you don't have to login to play the game. You absolutely cannot do that with Steam.

You absolutely can. There are lots of DRM-free games on steam and downloading the files is the only thing you need to do in order to run them. Obviously you can't do that with games relying on Steam DRM (at least not without using workarounds), but that's something the developer put in there, and not valve. Valve does not require any kind of DRM for games sold on Steam.

Have you read the link you provided? Steamcmd is nothing like a GOG offline installer. You are not downloading the game installer through Steamcmd, you are installing the game! It is just an incredibly convoluted command line version of the Steam client (for which, the client is likely the GUI). Yes, you can run some of the games without the client but that does NOT make it the equivalent of an offline installer. There is one fundamental difference: if you lose Internet access or Valve's servers go down, you cannot install the game!

This is not entirely true. Once a game have been downloaded but before it has been installed, there is a game installer.exe in the game path. If the game is released DRM free by the publisher you can copy this .exe to wherever you like and install it there instead.

Quoting: dren

Quoting: pb

Quoting: drenAgain this is misleading. Once you download your game from GOG, you can completely remove them from the scenario of installation at all. You have the files, you can install it on as many computers as you want and you don't have to login to play the game. You absolutely cannot do that with Steam.

You absolutely can. There are lots of DRM-free games on steam and downloading the files is the only thing you need to do in order to run them. Obviously you can't do that with games relying on Steam DRM (at least not without using workarounds), but that's something the developer put in there, and not valve. Valve does not require any kind of DRM for games sold on Steam.

@Caldathras is absolutely correct. GOG provides standalone executable installers, steam has no such feature. Games being DRM-free on steam isn't normal. Devs can and sometimes do add Steamworks DRM after initial releases, etc. The permanence of the Steam install being DRM-free isn't there. Also the Steam installation doesn't include other necessary dependencies, such as DirectX or C++ redistributables, that are included as part of an actual installer. Steam also doesn't advertise or tell you which games are DRM-free. On GOG EVERY game is DRM-free with all dependencies included as part of the installer (both Windows and Linux). In a lot of cases, these DRM-free directories still need the Steam client to act as a wrapper or handle activation. With GOG, you don't even need to use Galaxy, you can just download the installer from the website and install it where you want. This is why Heroic is able to provide direct access to your GOG library and is able to install everything you need for a game. It just feels like you are trying to make an equivalency argument that isn't actually equivalent.

But they do (if the game publisher have decided to release their game DRM free on Steam). In that case there is a perfectly fine old time .exe installer at the game location in Steam.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: F.UltraAFAIK this have only been rumoured by Epic. But if you have any links with data then provide them.

There are quotes buried in court files - I'll have to look for it myself.

Quoting: F.UltraYet when I google it I get back that Apple takes 30% (and 15% for small publishers) and Sony takes 30%...

Fortnite & the App Store ring any bells? Maybe search for EU DSA?

Good luck trying to find that in their lawsuit (they are not), the only thing that they presents is in their FAQ where they claim that Valve is doing this with weasel wording trying to avoid the fact that is all about Steam Keys. We all went over this in 2024 when they filed it.

The Fortnite vs Apple suit was because Apple forced Fortnite to use their payment system for in app purchases. So far I have no idea how this somehow makes LupertEverett:s comment that both Sony and Apple take 30% incorrect.

Quoting: eggroleAs everyone has said, I see no issue with the 30% cut, but I think the more important part, that has a bit of merit IMHO, is the off-platform competition restriction. If my game is for sale on steam for $50, why can't I sell it direct on my website (or any other platform for that matter) for $40?

This *feels* very anti-competitive, but what do I know.

AFAIK that is not what Valve does not allow, what they do not allow is you seeling Steam keys for $40 on your website if you have a sale at Steam for $50.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: drenThe amount of corporate bootlicking happening here is crazy. We are talking about a company that effectively has a monopoly on game sales, that promotes a skin gambling ecosystem that is available to minors ("loot boxes"), that for years resisted giving refunds, whos subscriber agreement attempts to prevent class action lawsuits, and who tried to monetize community made mods. Let's also not forget how shitty it was to force users onto a game, CS2, and mothball the better version, CSGO, who can't count to three (ignoring rumors), etc. As a linux gamer, I appreciate that they have made gaming on linux better, but lets not pretend that they aren't interested in getting people onto their own OS, SteamOS, so they can again increase their own margins via hardware and licensing. I think it is best to keep these corporations at an arms length at best. I love GOG because I can actually buy and own games, but they are still a corporation and corporate track records are pretty shitty these days.

Except ofc that this lawsuit (and zero of the others) have anything to do with this list of issues that you have with Valve/Steam. And I am quite confident that most people who write critically about this lawsuit agrees with you that what you list are valid concerns. But as I already said, the lawsuit is not about this so therefore "we" are not defending these actions by Valve when we criticize the lawsuit.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPSeems partly reasonable to me.

I've always said that Valve's cut is undeniably too large. I just don't see any legal grounds to lower it - but hey, who knows.
And that their practices especially for charging with in-game purchases are double dipping in many cases is also quite clear.

I'm not too sure about the PPO stuff, I've read too many conflicting statements here.

Still every single other shop that have taken a less cut does not provide anything comparable with the full suite that Steam offers plus that most of them are also in the red (e.g Epic is only able to afford to have their shop due to the income from Fortnite). So while 30% might be too much, no one have so far been able to actually demonstrate it in practice.

Quoting: poiuzThere are several occasions - confirmed by Valve - that they told publishers they expect the same price or prefer not to sell a game.

AFAIK this have only been rumoured by Epic. But if you have any links with data then provide them.

Quoting: LupertEverettThat's simple not correct.

Yet when I google it I get back that Apple takes 30% (and 15% for small publishers) and Sony takes 30%...

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Oh, you bought a notebook with an ODD this year? Regardless of ElectricPrism predictions those *are* becoming more and more scarce and harder to find. Did you bought it for gaming or office work? Was it good? Can you please tell the model?

Just playing with Google and there are still enough laptops being released with ODD that magazines are doing top 10 lists: https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/laptop-with-cd-dvd-drives [External Link]

But you are the others are still missing his point, his point is not that this kind of models are not becoming scarce, it was the notion of this not being "allowed".

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Quoting: Anza

Quoting: F.UltraNote that this is not the old Microprose from Sid Meier fame. This is an Australian individual that bought the rights to the Microprose logo in 2018. The last original Micropose studios closed shop in 1999 and the brand/ip have travelled through Spectrum HoloByte, Hasbro Interactive, Infogrames, Atari Interactive, Cybergun Group, Tommo and then finally to David Lagettie from Australia who AFAIK only bought the name and not the IP.

Out of curiosity, I did some digging and there are few things to add. It's bit more than just the name, "Wild Bill" Stealey joined the company unofficially to help out. Which maybe makes more sense as I think he was more the military simulator guy and Sid Meier is probably busy doing something for Firaxis anyway.

Also David has been buying all the IP that he has been able to buy. I can't list all the Microprose military simulations by name from memory, but there seems to be quite a few of them.

There's an article from several years ago [External Link] that opens up the situation lot more.

Oh, I did not know that. Paints a far better picture and here's to hoping.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Note that this is not the old Microprose from Sid Meier fame. This is an Australian individual that bought the rights to the Microprose logo in 2018. The last original Micropose studios closed shop in 1999 and the brand/ip have travelled through Spectrum HoloByte, Hasbro Interactive, Infogrames, Atari Interactive, Cybergun Group, Tommo and then finally to David Lagettie from Australia who AFAIK only bought the name and not the IP.

View this comment - View article - View full comments

Isn't that what Valve does with their Steam runtime containers?

Yes that is exactly what they do, one issue is however that there is only so much 3d party dependencies that Steam can manage in their runtimes plus the fact that those runtimes gets older and older and at some time one simply have to move on in order to allow new games to be allowed to use new features.

The major problem here is that Linux is made for open source development which is in stark contrast with how closed source games wants things to work in combination with (and this is not Linux specific) that close to every single library writer (with the exception of glibc) does not care for forwards compatibility.

Aka libraries can be written so that if your application is linked with glibc 3.4 but is now running on a system with glibc 4.5 and a function that you use foobar() have changed between those versions then your application would still be linked with the 3.4 version inside the 4.5 version of glibc. The reason why no one besides glibc supports this is because it is far from trivial to do (aka we would need better tools to handle this).

Another route one can do is what SDL have done as of SDL 3.x where they simply create a small 2.x shim that on the outside looks like 2.x to all applications that are linked with it but inside translates every call to the 3.x library. That way the SDL API/ABI can change from version to version but all old games/applications can not only be still supported but also actually use the new version (which improves security and can automatically add support for new things like Vulkan, pipewire and so on).

The problem ofc is that the world of dependencies are larger than glibc and SDL. So distributing your game with 100% of your dependencies bundled (aka flatpak) is another solution and actually how games are already distributed on Windows (which is the true reason why old Windows games still work today and not the myth that ABI/API:s on Windows are set in stone [remember that many games on Windows use SDL and similar open libs as well]).

View this comment - View article - View full comments

I had no idea that's how it works...Thanks for clarifying.

It is different from porting company to porting company but Feral in particular was AFAIK never hired by any firm to conduct a Linux port, instead they reached out to companies and bought the distribution rights for the macOS and Linux (and sometimes also Android) port.

This is different from e.g Aspyr what instead where hired by the game company to port their game to Linux and thus Aspyr got payed for doing the port by the game company and then the game company sells the Linux version just like they do the Windows version.

So besides the split issue that @Phlebiac brings up it is also possible that they also only bought the rights to sell their versions at specific stores (their own site, Steam and the Apple store) but that is a big unknown.

View this comment - View article - View full comments