Quoting: HadBabits

Quoting: LeopardThat worries me and also feels like a shitty move to devs whom put efforts into Linux versions.

This seems like a weird statement to me. Are you suggesting the WINE devs stop making progress? As you said, native games are obviously the easiest way to game, and it's probably the way the majority of the Linux crowd games most of the time. Of course there are folks like Mr Death Jr. above who dedicate a lot of time into it, Linux attracts hobbyists (And good on 'em ^_^). However, I can't see that impacting porting decisions. Most Linux users probably don't use WINE on a daily basis. Most game devs probably won't even be familiar with it.

On the other hand there are people working hard on WINE so we can play games and use software that may never be on our platform natively, and that's pretty rad, yeah?

Sure , let me explain and ask.

I'm not saying Wine devs to stop , i'm saying Linux users to stop buying Windows only games.

I will be more open : Pirate Windows only games if you are in a so bad needy position to play them.

Because :

1-) You will feed Windows market ( already massive ) and in a some way grace devs or companies with don't giving a shit about Linux.

2-) When you bought a Windows only game ; you won't purchase it again when it is ported to Linux. So Wine development kinda forcing porters ( VP , Feral ) to pick not run well with Wine titles.

Is depending Wine for gaming more and more , can be considered as Gaming on Linux? I don't think so , that is kinda similar to saying " Hey , i'm running Windows with gpu passthrough on my Linux box for gaming , so i'm gaming on Linux".

Yeah mate , yeah you are.

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Wine is a great tool and DXVK improvement is amazing. But it is also a little bit worrying since lately ( due to improvements ) it became an excuse to spend Windows only games ( because some titles even work on day 1 ) and puts a Linux native port into a meaningless position.

Because lately i'm seeing so much people screaming on various games Steam forums as " Do Linux version " but already most of them have it.

So when developer decided to do it ( with official support , which is the key part as a platform value ) , dev expecting sales from that platform.

But seeing so many people have it , dev would simply say : You already bought it , sale is done. Why should i bother with it and put effort for supporting it?

Or dev can port it anyway but possibly face with low sale count from Linux.

Why native ports are important? Linux need more gamers and best way to convince a newcomer is the native game count , not Wine. Because Wine is not a tool ( despite Lutris like solutions , you can't guarentee that scripts will work for everyone ) that a newcomer can quickly adapt.

That worries me and also feels like a shitty move to devs whom put efforts into Linux versions.

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Quoting: GuestWhat John Carmack said 5 years ago is not applicable anymore.

The proof is the number of quality games we currently have on Linux. It is slowly but continuously growing. Add to that the relatively quick adoption of Vulkan.

As for id Software, their parent company, Zenimax, just seems to be anti-Linux. Doom 2016 runs great on WINE and have performance parity with Windows. If they are worried about having Linux customer support, they could have just hired Feral Interactive or Aspyr Media for porting the game to Linux. Even their latest Wolfenstein game runs on WINE already.

They both running well because of Vulkan. But these games still rely on DirectX. Input , sound etc. relies on DirectX.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: LeopardLet me remind you John Carmack's Wine Linux proposal:

His company did ports of Linux versions of their games in an era which slightly less people was on Linux and internet game stores wasn't a thing at all. It failed their hopes about selling.

Then he said Wine is way to go for Linux and native ports are just a waste of time.

According to him ; Linux users will eventually ran game via Wine by tinkering it by commiting and applying hacks. Because they're much more technical people than Windows users. Also there are only technical people out there using Linux , so they don't have to provide native , easy , one click versions. They will bought it even it is only Windows anyway , so they will find a way run it.

Easy money.

Probably there will be some people who are furious about me but ; if they don't care about a Linux port then that means they're clearly saying " We don't need your money at all ".

Do the math beyond there.

Was that John Carmack's statement prior to the release of Steam for Linux?

If yes, that is not applicable to our time anymore.

His statements belong to 5 February 2013. Steam for Linux released at 14 February 2013.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/298628243630723074 [External Link]

He later further replied that " Wine should be better statement " on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/ [External Link]

As you can see he is saying ; his company tried twice and conventional wisdow showed that Linux market is not good. And from that point ; developing for Linux market seemed pointless to him and that is why he is asking " Why Wine is not good enough" .

He is not hostile to Linux but he is hostile to developing for less people.

http://rmitz.org/carmack.on.operating.systems.html [External Link]

To sum it up ; so he was suggesting Wine should be better because he decided making native releases are just waste of time ( for Linux , not for others. )

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Leopard

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: LeopardYou bought it and play it with Wine anyway , why should dev port it? Dev don't have to provide support for you , because you're running it on an unsupported system so it is not his/ her problem.

I didn't think of that. It's not only as good - they're getting the money -, it's even better - they're getting the money without having to port plus they don't need to do support! So it's not only no incentive to port, it's actually an additional incentive not to port. (Still, everybody is free to do as he likes of course. For some, the alternative to using Linux and WINE for gaming might be to not use Linux for gaming at all...)

Well , i got sick of seeing so many threads on Steam titled as : Linux port.

They have their mouse icon ( ownership badge ) and asking for a Linux port. If you asking for a Linux port , why you purchased it at first place with knowing that game does not have Linux support.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/417290/discussions/0/352788917758965624/#c353915309340076815 [External Link]

Look at the reply of developer. Since it is a new game , there is not much people who owns game and asks for a port. Developer is not fully closed to Linux port but he is saying " We heard some ran it on Wine! "

So it is? How convincing for me to give you money until a patch broke it , nice.

i have around 3 times as many total games as i have Linux games on steam. im not about to give up on them. also, there are many developers that are in no position to make linux ports. In some cases i await for a port, Rise of the Tomb Raider for example, but for Japanese niche titles there is no point. Those developers barely know how to operate the engine in WindeX let alone make it run on multiple OS. Simply Locking yourself out of games just to be a purist is silly.

Nope , it is not a purism thing. I use Wine too but with an exception ( 4 titles ): My usage is not in a way that removes the meaning of having Linux port or NOT.

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Quoting: poisond

Quoting: LeopardWell , with only one caveat. You keep feeding Windows gaming scene and make Linux native ports meaningless.

You bought it and play it with Wine anyway , why should dev port it? Dev don't have to provide support for you , because you're running it on an unsupported system so it is not his/ her problem.

You forget the other side: without being able to run that "one vital Windos application" fewer people would start using Linux and the potential future market for Linux applications/games would be smaller.

I personally couldn't have used Linux 16 years ago without wine because I needed access to a database system which was unsupported on Linux.
So there's at least one long term exclusive Linux user thanks to wine.

Sure , Wine is a useful tool but it starts to become a " You can play it on Wine anyway " kinda excuse.

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Quoting: lucifertdark

Quoting: LeopardThere are three kind of Linux users:

1-) Dual booting and keep buying Windows games , then hopes to jump Linux entirely when there is title parity

2-) Drm-free fanatics. They still didn't realize without Valve , there is no chance to grow. Without Steam on Linux , you probably wouldn't see so many indie titles on GOG too because devs wouldn't do a Linux version at all.

3-) Only Linux booters. Who only cares about growth of Linux gaming because they know if Linux gaming reaches to a certain point , there will be much more options on market. Even beneficial to Drm Free stores because there will be much more Linux games on there too.

Actually there's a fourth type of Linux user.

4-) Dual booting but only buying games when & if a Linux port arrives.

The only reason I keep Windows around is for Lightroom as it sucks in Wine.

Sure , you are right. My message was entirely based on gaming.

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Let me remind you John Carmack's Wine Linux proposal:

His company did ports of Linux versions of their games in an era which slightly less people was on Linux and internet game stores wasn't a thing at all. It failed their hopes about selling.

Then he said Wine is way to go for Linux and native ports are just a waste of time.

According to him ; Linux users will eventually ran game via Wine by tinkering it by commiting and applying hacks. Because they're much more technical people than Windows users. Also there are only technical people out there using Linux , so they don't have to provide native , easy , one click versions. They will bought it even it is only Windows anyway , so they will find a way run it.

Easy money.

Probably there will be some people who are furious about me but ; if they don't care about a Linux port then that means they're clearly saying " We don't need your money at all ".

Do the math beyond there.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: LeopardYou bought it and play it with Wine anyway , why should dev port it? Dev don't have to provide support for you , because you're running it on an unsupported system so it is not his/ her problem.

I didn't think of that. It's not only as good - they're getting the money -, it's even better - they're getting the money without having to port plus they don't need to do support! So it's not only no incentive to port, it's actually an additional incentive not to port. (Still, everybody is free to do as he likes of course. For some, the alternative to using Linux and WINE for gaming might be to not use Linux for gaming at all...)

Well , i got sick of seeing so many threads on Steam titled as : Linux port.

They have their mouse icon ( ownership badge ) and asking for a Linux port. If you asking for a Linux port , why you purchased it at first place with knowing that game does not have Linux support.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/417290/discussions/0/352788917758965624/#c353915309340076815 [External Link]

Look at the reply of developer. Since it is a new game , there is not much people who owns game and asks for a port. Developer is not fully closed to Linux port but he is saying " We heard some ran it on Wine! "

So it is? How convincing for me to give you money until a patch broke it , nice.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Leopard

Quoting: GuestThere are relatively few real supporters of Linux gaming. I, too, want DRM-free games but if all Linux gamers would have a "Not DRM-free, No Bux" attitude, linux gaming will not grow.

There are three kind of Linux users:

1-) Dual booting and keep buying Windows games , then hopes to jump Linux entirely when there is title parity

2-) Drm-free fanatics. They still didn't realize without Valve , there is no chance to grow. Without Steam on Linux , you probably wouldn't see so many indie titles on GOG too because devs wouldn't do a Linux version at all.

3-) Only Linux booters. Who only cares about growth of Linux gaming because they know if Linux gaming reaches to a certain point , there will be much more options on market. Even beneficial to Drm Free stores because there will be much more Linux games on there too.

And then there is me who just boots Linux and plays whatever i can. If its native cool, if its new and i can play with WINE, well you better believe imma gonna buy it and play it :D . And then there are emulators, source ports and open engines. I will run whatever software i can make run on my PC.

Well , with only one caveat. You keep feeding Windows gaming scene and make Linux native ports meaningless.

You bought it and play it with Wine anyway , why should dev port it? Dev don't have to provide support for you , because you're running it on an unsupported system so it is not his/ her problem.

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