Quoting: SalvatosI have no clue why everyone is complaining about them now since I haven't had any trouble with that card except for the occasional bug in driver updates, but I suppose it has to do with the newer cards' support?

I don't see much complaining NVidia user, it is more that some AMD users feel the need to highlight what NVidia users seem to miss ;). I'm still more than happy with my newer NVidia card.

My feeling is that all newer cards are perfectly supported by both vendors. Both choices are still very valid:
- Go for NVidia when looking for speed and compatibility with all games but expect some hassles with driver installation and a "tainted" system due to the closed source nature.
- Go for AMD if you are looking for the perfect fit into the Linux ecosystem, though expect slightly lesser performance and be aware that you might need a lot of bleeding edge components (kernel, mesa) for newer games to run well.

(This will be my only post on that subject, I don't want to start another off-topic discussion ;))

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Quoting: ShmerlIf Feral want to combine forces, let them contribute to Wine, or open source their own wrapper so it could be used by developers with any game, rather than ones they authorize.

This is indeed the moment to stop ;)

Thanks for the discussion and have a good, depending on your timezone, day or evening.
(just to be sure, I do mean this honestly.)

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jensIt makes me sad to read that your own personal choice to avoid Steam doesn't let you see the value Feral and friends are doing for Linux gaming plus Linux adoption and that you are even prefer to compromise their efforts :(

I didn't say there is no value. I said I don't agree that it's wrong to have competition. I quite strongly disagree with that especially in case when their option is exclusive. Competition makes it accessible, rather than walled.

I'll repeat myself again:
"With our insignificant market share we should combine forces and not encourage competition. Lets do that again once we have reached 20% market share."

We can agree that we strongly disagree here. Growth in Linux adoption and cool games/big titles are my priorities, your priority seems to be DRM-free gaming.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: EikeI disagree, because one is paying for a game sold for Windows (and is strenghtening Windows market) and the other is paying for a game sold for Linux

One is playing a game sold for Windows, and other is not playing the game that Feral didn't port. That's the options. So for me the first is clearly better, since the second would be 100% of games that are available in DRM-free stores.

It makes me sad to read that your own personal choice to avoid Steam doesn't let you see the value Feral and friends are doing for Linux gaming plus Linux adoption and that you are even prefer to compromise their efforts :(

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Quoting: ShmerlBesides, Feral wrappers don't encourage native releases unlike some claim above.

Feral shows that money can be earned when targeting Linux. Earning money is the only valid motivation for companies to further invest into Linux. They do currently prepare the way for market growth and more native titles in the future once the Linux market has (hopefully) reached a significant volume.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jensI wouldn't underestimate the value Feral and friends currently have for Linux. Gaming on linux/Linux for Desktop will go back straight to the middle ages if the few AAA publishers we have decide to leave Linux and focus on Mac/iOS only.

If there is a distinct value, then competition isn't a problem, right? And if you worry that they'll be obsoleted by Wine, then Wine can provide that value all the same. So from Linux gaming perspective why is it bad? Competition usually moves things forward, and its lack causes stagnation.

I will quote myself:
".. every game bought for wine-gaming is still a windows sell and will only strengthen windows as gaming platform."

With our insignificant market share we should combine forces and not encourage competition. Lets do that again once we have reached 20% market share. Wine should focus itself on applications and older games. Leave the market of newer titles to Feral and friends so that they properly count as Linux sell.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: jensLets say wine would aim for perfect support for Rise of the Tomb Raider. Lots of people would then buy the windows version and that in turn would mean a financial disaster for Feral once they release their version.

So, Feral can find other form of activity rather than selling a closed wrapper. That's what competition does. CodeWeavers found a way to make money on their FOSS project. I don't see a need to say don't make FOSS projects because it threatens closed ones. That's not how things work, by this logic Linux itself shouldn't have been made.

I wouldn't underestimate the value Feral and friends currently have for Linux. Gaming on linux/Linux for Desktop will go back straight to the middle ages if the few AAA publishers we have decide to leave Linux and focus on Mac/iOS only.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: ScooptaYes but wine isn't a port. Feral might be doing some wrapping but they're not wrapping the entire binary. I'll take ports over wrappers any day even if the port has wrapper libraries.

I disagree with saying that Feral's wrapper has no effect on native gaming. It has. It reduces incentives to make native ports. It doesn't mean it's a bad thing, since wrapped release is better than no functioning option at all. But then your claim that binary wrapper somehow discourages native ports more doesn't make sense to me. It's IMHO completely irrelevant what kind of wrapping takes place if you are analyzing it as alternative to native port. It's all a shortcut that allows playing something without spending a lot on native rewrite. The only difference is that Wine allows it for anything, and Feral allow it for what they selected only.

So this whole argument is about marketing only (i.e. "viewed as Linux release" ), not about actual effect on native releases. Nothing stops developers doing what Topware did [External Link], and use Wine for marketed "official" Linux release.

This whole topic started as an answer to "Wine discourages native ports, while Feral are encouraging them". I don't see that difference. If anything, both provide non native options in different fashions, and one being a closed controlled by Feral product, while other is FOSS and can be used by anyone.

Feral gets paid for their efforts and deliver outstanding quality and support in turn. With wine it is always a gamble if something works or not with a certain wine version and there is no support at all. I do consider that a difference.

The main point though is still that gaming-on-Linux will only start to rise and shine when developers and gaming studios see that money can be earned when publishing for Linux. Stated otherwise: that investing in Linux is worth it. That is simply not possible with wine, every game bought for wine-gaming is still a windows sell and will only strengthen windows as gaming platform.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Luke_NukemSeriously, you're just being an ideological &§"$&§ if that makes you $§&§ the bed.

I'd propose you start behaving like a grown up.
You're welcome.

You don't need to follow my reasoning,
this is your decision just as well as mine is mine,
but you need to be respectful to other people.

While I'm on the subject with jaycee I do fully agree with your comments regarding respects and communication. Thanks a lot for keeping it civilized!

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Quoting: throghCelebrating again a company giving some efforts back to free and libre projects does not change anything. In fact it is the same "whitewashing" Google is doing, but hey ... it's all about proprietary software here and only sometimes about free / libre software!

Fortunately Linux has more to offer than just free software.

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