Quoting: Guest@linuxwarper, thank you for that awesome writeup :).

Glad that my points came across the way I meant them to:) Those are my concerns for Stadia. But as has been stated many times, Stadia is good in that it will help Vulkan adoption. It also can improve Linux ecosystem, with more work being done for issues Google has with running Stadia servers (It's Debian), which could came back to benefiting the platform as a whole.

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I'm hoping whatever Valve is cooking with Steam Cloud will be a improved Remote Play. That is what I will be using. I don't think Geforce Now will be only stream service with Steam Cloud. I won't be using Geforce Now nor Stadia.

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Quoting: GuestGotcha, but I was expanding on your points to the common issue I read. Linux does flourish, in fact its growing, just not perhaps in areas you're aware of. Last I checked PC gaming itself was shrinking and if you're looking at just numbers, are you will to invest in an OS that's very muddy when it comes to future projections? I know Steam is helping here, but it may take awhile longer to have a case made.

What will happen to that growth and momentum if another propietary OS (ChromeOS) outgrows Linux? Google has the money to sell laptops (they already are) with ChromeOS installed. It could lead to another OS for Linux to compete with. With Stadia I believe Google has a strong case to gain marketshare. And that's just one service that Google has.

Quoting: GuestThat's quite rude, wanting for better wording? I gave you a point that you missed, not having to download extra libraries, drivers, proton, Valve etc. it a lot easier if you're wanting to jump right in with streaming that Staida provides, this attracts people who don't think about the angle you're coming from. Other streaming services may not so friendly to what we have on Linux, if I recall Geforce Now

I meant that Stadia can lead to ChromeOS success. And if we aren't careful we might end up contributing to ChromeOS far more than to Linux. There are already ChromeOS laptops on the market, and Google has had moderate success with them. If they make a bigger move to promote ChromeOS for gaming, it will outshine Linux.
ChromeOS comes with specs that are in line with the things you said Stadia doesn't need. Storage, memory, software etc. And ChromeOS is preinstalled on these laptops.

Quoting: GuestI don't like exclusives like that on any platform, Epic Store is a prime example, plus if you're into consoles you know they each have their exclusive games too. It's called competition however, of course they want it to be dominant, and is it OK if the exclusive isn't permanent?

It's a poor excuse for competition. Actual competition would be Google leveraging the benefits of Cloud to attract players to Stadia. Features like what they did with Ghost Recon (split screen cam views of fellow players). No, I don't find it OK. Because if you accept exclusivity they will continue to stretch that. It's OK if it's first party titles that Google themselves have developed from start to finish, but I wouldn't put it past companies like Google to pay for permanent exclusivity for third party games. If you accept a limited time exclusivity, they could move the goal post. Now the game is exclusive to Stadia on ChromeOS. It seems like a absurd thought, but that I think can surely happen if it becomes popular enough and Google has enough leeway to do that.

Quoting: GuestIsn't it already like that with Linux, go to GOG for example, are they fully supportive of Linux? Last I checked their launcher did not support Linux. I would argue with Valve's work on Linux/Proton we're better off now than ever before with the ability to play almost anywhere. Is Steam DRM? The effects with Stadia is unknown at this time, but again I get to play on Linux wherever I want and I am not limited to ChromeOS...Honestly, I can't blame developers wanting DRM, this is unpopular, but I know too many people, usually not linux ones weirdly lol, who are quick to pirate when they can.

GOG isn'tfully supportive no, but they do support Linux.They reported that their business was not doing so well. And in light of this, they had to drop a monetary benefit that buyers in certain region had. In other words, they dropped that benefit for all users (not just Linux) because they had to. It proves that they may be more restrained by costs than anything else. Ultimately they do support Linux, but more importantly they don't try to harm the platform.

Steam has DRM yes, but there are a big list of games that are DRM free. And Valve has not, to my knowledge, encouraged developers to add Denuvo to their games. And reason why Steam and Valve are not a issue is because they have been supporting us in so many ways over the years.

Quoting: GuestOverall though, I simply don't fully agree with your assessment, but time may and perhaps will tell one way or another.

According to netmarketshare [External Link], ChromeOS is at 0.42%. How accurate that number is, is for another discussion. But that's not far from Linux's 1.89%. Google has the brands and money. They have said they want to enter gaming space and use Youtube to promote Stadia. If they make a major push for gaming on ChromeOS with Stadia laptops, what do you think that will do to Linux? Do you think average users will think "I'll install Linux on my ChromeOS laptop and enjoy Linux gamin with Stadia"? No, they will stick to ChromeOS, and why not? From what I've heard they don't seem like bad laptops.

I could be entirely wrong in my thinking. But I find that the puzzles all line up perfectly for such business strategy, if that's what Google intends with ChromeOS and Stadia.

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Quoting: CatKillerBut what it does do is force developers to learn how to make their games work on Linux with Vulkan - since that's necessary for a game to work on Stadia - and Google will provide resources to help them do that. What the developers do with that knowledge and the product they've created after that is down to the developers. Many are going to shy away from the (real or perceived) costs of supporting actual Linux versions on actual customers' hardware, but they'll all have learned how to make games without Windows and without DirectX, which has been a barrier in the past.

Yes, this is the only reason I am glad Stadia exists.

Quoting: CatKillerWhether a move to streaming is good or bad for gaming as a whole in the long run, it's too early to say. It opens up gaming to people whose Internet is better than their hardware, which might increase the size of the market so that more people can make more games. Geforce Now doesn't tie purchasers to one provider, but it does tie game developers to Windows; Stadia is the other way round, and Google's reputation for dropping services does hurt them. There are things like anti-cheat and enormous worlds that are easier to do "in the cloud" than locally. But there is less (real or perceived) ownership with streaming than local installs. It could shake out as good, bad, or neutral over all.

That streaming is good and has benefits is undeniable. I am not questioning that for a second. When I say streaming will harm PC gaming I am thinking of all the bad practices that will be baked into Stadia. We have already seen signs of these practices. Games being removed from Geforce Now, exclusive deals and Stadia not providing local play release. As you pointed out Google will pay developers to not release their games locally if it will help Stadia. And have they already not done that? Isn't Gylt currently exclusive to Stadia? So already today we see the signs of damage to PC gaming.

Quoting: CatKillerPersonally, I'm more interested in a streaming service from Valve than anything that exists now. They have a better reputation for longevity than Google and they have a long-term investment in desktop Linux as a gaming platform. But it doesn't exist yet, except as speculation.

Me too. I've already tested Remote Play, and it was OK experience. According to a post I came across the streaming is not as good on AMDGPUs as it is on Nvidia because of some encoding thing. I'm eagerly waiting for that to happen, if it happens at all.

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Quoting: GuestI was playing Doom Eternal on Stadia from day one through Chrome without any issues, unlike what was experienced through Proton/Valve and I saved a lot of hard drive space. Each has their respective pros and cons. If Google decided to cancel Stadia things could get interesting, although we should not forget that it's the developers, not Stadia, who are ultimately responsible for their games, so it's not unreasonable to assume most will issue keys to other platforms, such as Steam if the event ever arises.

Anyone who claims streaming (in general) is bad, don't know what they are talking about.

I am not concerned Google will cancel Stadia. I am of damages Stadia can do to PC (Linux) gaming. Many of us want Linux to be adopted and to see the platform flourish. My main concern is that supporting Stadia could lead to ChromeOS becoming bigger than Linux. If such a scenario happens I worry it will detract from Linux ecosystem. That we will be beholden to Google's platform and less free. As opposed to a scenario where Linux finally is adopted (past few percentages) and the platform is supported more than ever before. Not only support of games but also support of other software.

Your points about being able to play Doom Eternal seems kinda meaningless for lack of better wording. Stadia is strictly streaming yes (as I was informed), but why? Why not give gamers choice of playing a game both locally and by streaming it? The answer should be obvious, they want to make streaming predominant option. Limiting of user choice. It could have been fine if Stadia was strictly streaming because then people could buy games on platforms of their choice. You want streaming? Stadia. Local? Steam/GOG/Other. Except Google is making exclusive deals. I would bet that in future they will pull a Sony and make deals to ensure games are available exclusive for streaming on Stadia and nowhere else.

If a future where users choices on how they can play games and where, with drm and potentially geopardizing Linux ecosystem is something we can be ok with by supporting Stadia, then we might as well just switch back to Windows and stick to their walled garden. Doom Eternal runs even better on Windows than it does on Stadia/Proton. Yes, you can play the game through Stadia ON Linux, but I think supporting the service will have detrimental effects on Linux marketshare when ChromeOS becomes another major competitor.

I don't mean to shame anyone for using Stadia, these are just my thoughts

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Quoting: CatKillerA very early test that used Assassin's Creed gave participants a normal copy of Assassin's Creed as a reward for taking part. You might be thinking of that. Stadia itself is strictly streaming.

No, that's not where I got it from. I just was left with impression that you could play games you bought locally (provided you were online) in addition to being able to stream it. Now it all makes perfect sense. Why Geforce Now is being abandoned. Why games aren't made available on Linux. It's meaningless to hope for Google to encourage devs to release locally on Linux when they aren't even providing that opportunity to even Windows users.

I'm sure Stadia is good, but I am more certain now that supporting it will be to detriment to Linux and PC gaming as a whole. And I honestly don't think Linux needs Stadia. Just look at the progress Proton has made ever since it was released. If Linux gamers can wait a year, two or three for Feral to release games natively, perhaps we should wait a year or two for anti cheat to be resolved and we can play PUBG and other stuff. Or maybe months, if these games will be available on Steam Cloud before anti cheat is supported on WINE.

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyI'd be willing to bet they use Linux for the servers because, first, Linux servers are more efficient, and second, they don't have to worry about licensing (and, third, with open source they can tweak 'em as they need, and fourth Google know all about running Linux servers because they already use them for most of their other stuff for the other three reasons). Savings mount up when you've got huge numbers of servers; it wouldn't have made economic sense to use Windows.
I get the impression Windows licensing is fairly cheap right now, but you never know when they'll try to get more revenue through that channel; what would Google do if MS realize their fond dream of going subscription-based? And MS is Google's competitor; no need to hand them a rug to pull out from under you.
But no, it's not like they give a damn about Linux as used outside of Google, and certainly they don't care a bean for the Linux desktop.

I heard there are like 12,000 users of Stadia? It goes back to point I made. That it wasn't hard for them to support Linux because Google is heavily invested on the platform on server side and know their way around and because it's based on Debian. The second reason being that they will need to cast as wide net as possible to ensure enough players are on the platform, so that it doesn't feel like a wasteland.
To your comments; who doesn't use Linux? Many companies either use Linux or BSD for their products or servers. It's just desktop that they don't care about.

Quoting: SirLootALotGrid and Metro: Exodus are likely to get Linux support on the Steam version. Other Games had Linux support before, like the Serious Sam Games or the Tomb Raider Games.

Quoting: Liam DaweWell no, you don't play them locally, it's game streaming.

If you mean does it have games, that also have Linux desktop support on other stores, yes it does including: Jotun, Sundered, the SteamWorld series, soon to be Metro Exodus, we've seen hints of GRID coming too. That is entirely besides the point though, it's a different platform, that works on Linux. It's an additional / different way to play. Still, nice it uses Vulkan and Linux though behind the scenes.

I was thinking of if there are games on Stadia store that has Linux local play support because of Google i.e Google showing love to Linux by encouraging developers to release their games locally too for Linux. Grid and Metro EXodus are among the two games that has been on Linux already prior to Stadia, so I think the credit of why it will come to Linux goes to developers (Feral and Metro devs). Metro Exodus was released DRM free on GOG recently, so another point for Metro Devs. The fact Stadia uses Vulkan seems to make the process for devs, who have or are already supporting Linux, easier.

EDIT: Wait Stadia doesn't support local play? It's strictly streaming?! I thought it did as a way to break into the market..

Quoting: Liam DaweYou're right, it wasn't, so it's actually a nice addition. They only originally said 720p, 1080p and 4K. Now they're expanding on from that.

I misunderstood. Thought ESO was max supported resolution was only 1440, i.e no 4K. That's pretty good indeed.

Quoting: rustybroomhandleWhat's amusing here is that there are in the vicinity of about 800000 to 900000 Linux Gamers on Steam, and only about 12000 Stadia users, yet studios/publishers are more willing to throw money at those 12000 than to the hundreds of thousands of the rest of us.

Not amusing at all. ESA, Entertainment Software Assosciation, are banded together for a reason. That reason is to support their interests, whether it be microtransaction or whatever. Streaming with Stadia seems like it will give them another edge on consumers freedom. For example, now with Stadia's existence they will have opportunity to ask for money from Nvidia to allow their games on GeForce Now. Another being they can limit third party cheats for their games, which leaves gamers with no choice than pay up for microtransaction to speed up lvling or other things.

And I don't think it's fair. When Steam machines were a thing, many companies jump on board. So it's not like they haven't tried before. Also because Linux marketshare is not sustainable for all game development.

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It's very hard for me to use it. Google doesn't seem to care about desktop Linux and they have bought exclusives. The fact they support Linux could be because it wasn't hard to do so and because it's also reliant on users. Is there a single game on Stadia, that can be played locally, that supports Linux? No (?).

Meanwhile our "friend" Valve has supported us (natively and through Proton) and their cloud service is nearing. Let's not forget the DRM and also that ChromeOS is a threat to all Linux OSes that fall under FOSS umbrella. I want Linux to grow (Debian, Ubuntu, Solus, Arch, etc) not ChromeOS, so I will wait for Valve's service and hope it meets my expectations.

More on topic; 1440 isn't what was promised.

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Quoting: appetrosyanI would like to add that not all games are created equal. Some of them, like Alien: Isolation are installed, run and completed several times over. Right now Linux is a hard sell for en-mass installation because, as much-better-poets-than-me have remarked, we have no compelling reason to have people switch over and there are barriers. Proton and DXVK reduce the pressure to switch away from Linux but they don't create pressure to switch to it.

By design, there are very few programs that can be run on GNU Linux and only GNU Linux. That includes Games. A thing that would have driven mass adoption, could have been if a single-player Half Life 3 non-VR were released as a Linux exclusive. Valve are under no obligation to create a Windows build and a vote of confidence would have been to release, HL3 as a Linux exclusive. It won't happen, but mainly because the mass adoption of Linux and control over a platform that you can't lock-in, doesn't compensate for the lost sales that they would have had. It has nothing to do with Exclusives allegedly being incompatible with FOSS (they are the key part of CopyLeft, and by design the proper GPLv3 is exclusive to FOSS). In fact, we don't inspire much confidence to have them delay the launch of HL:Alyx until they have a working build for Linux.

Another reason to switch would have been privacy and security. Unfortunately, it almost never is a factor in people's minds. You can't make it one, because preaching doesn't work. You can convert a small number of people, but not more than that.

Viruses create a pressure to switch to Linux, but not as much as I hoped. People don't care about viruses. Some don't care enough to use a mitigation like Windows defender that they already have! Much less spend time and effort to get away from them. The only way this pressure gets stronger, is if Microsoft keeps on making blunders and creating security holes, that cause ransomware outbreaks. Otherwise, why bother?

The abundance of Professionally monopolistic software that doesn't and will not support GNU+Linux because of catch 22. That's a strong pressure and a dealbreaker for switching away from Linux to Windows. It's sometimes enough to make people switch away from Mac OS, which has way more things going for it than Linux.

Community fragmentation. No! I'm not referring to people writing weekend projects like an app to keep track of recipes. Nor am I referring to the overabundance of Desktop Environments. I'm referring to the fact that if you search for Linux.org, and ask to download, you'd be taken to a wall of text with no descriptions. If I'm totally honest, I'd just prune the list down to Ubuntu, Arch and parabola, clearly stating that Ubuntu's the gateway drug, Arch is the hard stuff, and Parabola is the hardcore fanatic dosage. Sadly, far too many distress are pushing their own agendas on Linux.org, to remove them from consideration. It wouldn't be fair, too. I personally like Gentoo.

Lack of standardisation. What is the de-factor standard VoIP communication protocol for Linux? Anyone? Mac OS - FaceTime, Windows - Skype. Everything that is standard came from Unix and no newer standards are better. Wayland is supposed to be one new standard, and its support is abysmal. Office Suite? Apple - Keynote, Pages and Cells, Windows - Word, PowerPoint and Excel. Linux? Well we have a zoo. Thankfully they all speak the same language. Unfortunately instead of speaking it like Americans, Australians and Brits, they speak it more like the Aztecs, the Russians and the Japanese...

The User experience and Desktop Bling are a good selling point. Just go to UnixPorn and you'll see many compelling reasons to switch to Linux. But... that's the UI, not the UX. The UX is: I created my coursework in FreeCad instead of AutoCad, and got an F, because my project Supervisor couldn't open it. It's that I'm at a command prompt and instead of using the familiar apt install, instead I have to use paceman -S. It's fine, it's easier to type, but I would install by default a wrapper script that dynamically resolved what you want to happen and told you what the command is. It has to be there by default!!! We lack these common interfaces that people need to rely on, if they want to eventually stop thinking and get doing. The flatpak is a major step in the right direction and the fact that RedHat is forcing it on everybody is actually a good thing. because then I have a reliable way of making things work cross platform. If only it were also, you know... GOOD.

The only real advantages, like technical superiority the security are sadly the things that are the toughest to sell. Until we fix this, Linux will always be at the mercy of Microsofts and the Googles. If we want to change adoption we need a Killer App. And unfortunately, every killer app spot is already taken...

First of all, I agree on many if not all of your points. But I see it a little differently. Has there been ever a time the last decade where Linux gaming has been so effortless as it is now? I've not been around as long as you fellas but I like to think I know. And I don't believe it has.

I think the barriers to gaming is more significant issue than incentives for switching to Linux. The platform is more secure and is free (modding, privacy, customization). If anticheat issue is 100% resolved, I believe it will propel Linux above one percent easily, perhaps even reach two percent with time. With that many users the platform will have more buzz than ever before. This buzz will spread awareness about the platform. Perhaps a relatively famous streamer or Youtuber switches to Linux. Then that person's 100K+ viewers will be exposed to his or her desktop. Maybe they think it looks super cool, and then search and find out it's Linux and you can customize the OS. From there the ball will roll more.

It's undeniable that Linux needs something to make it be used far more than two percent. But if there is one thing that has been a WIP ever since I switched to Linux it has been gaming. First and foremost when it comes to major games (AAA). Linux already has decent if not great apps. Mumble, OBS, SimpleScreenRecorder, MangoHUD, Krita, GIMP, Blender, Godot etc. It's not perfect and it doesn't cover ever single person's use case, but it has been a good experience for me. And I believe for gamers it can provide a better experience when Proton is at it's peak.

It's also important to note that the Windows 10 of today is not the same of earl times. Windows 10, from what I've gleaned, is better than it was previously. Improvements on the platform will make it more difficult to persuade people to switch to Linux. However, if the barrier to gaming is basically non existant on Linux every time Microsoft mistreats their users there will be a opportunity for Linux to siphon users away. To illustrate, imagine how many users Linux would have gained with a complete Proton (anticheat and VK3D) back when Windows 10 was launched with all of it's issues. Now it's difficult. Interoperatibility of Xbox and Windows 10, Game Pass, XCloud make it so. And the reason I bring this up is that it seems that Linux is at a turning point and that Microsoft is as aware of it as us users are.

Valve released their latest games on Linux and are proponents of Vulkan. There has also been news about Steam Cloud [External Link], and it wouldn't be crazy to assume that will likely work on Linux too. So it seems the issue of being able to play major games on Linux will be resolved.

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To elaborate on reasons to use Linux: privacy, secure, no nagging, better utilities and convenient. The fact you don't have to go through any hoops to reinstall a Linux distro, it's so easy and convenient. And once you've installed it you don't have to worry much if any about invasive features like with Windows. It respects your choices as opposed to Windows where Microsoft could reinstall apps or add new one to your OS if they like. PC modding is also at heart of Linux.

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