Yes, of course, the level of distinctiveness needs to be practical, but also coherent. Roughly, in this topic, we're discussing the ability to treating equally to everyone, so common sense would dictate that when giving an example, like the Ukrainian and African devs before, they ideally should be of equal measure, so our words send the correct message.

I completely disagree with this.
It was just a list of examples and examples do not need to be of equal... well, equal anything really, as long as they still serve as valid examples.

My words got the correct message out, you just started diving in and overanalyzing. You are waaaayyy overthinking this.

This is an online forum, not a dissertation waiting to be submitted as thesis.

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At least Nexus Mods seems to have implemented the law in a sensible way compared to other sites.

What do non-sensible ways look like?
Genuine question.

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Honestly: Good.

We tried the laissez-faire way, and we know how that ended. However this eventually turns out, I cannot imagine it being worse.

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Genuine question from a non-native English speaker. I thought using the term "of colour" was now considered untasteful/not-correct because everyone has a colour?

Totally possible.
To be blunt, I just stopped caring about people's sensibilities when it comes to "word X bad".
Whatever you say can and will offend someone, always, so you might as well just speak your mind without trying to walk on eggshells all the time - as long as I'm not trying to be a douche on purpose, my conscience is clear.

A stance I can only recommend. If someone still takes offense, so be it. Life's too short to worry about that.

But also, this whole package is called "devs of color", so IDK how many people are really upset about the terminology and how much of it is just online brainrot that can be safely ignored.

Putting together "African devs" as one culture seems rather... unfortunate. I'm sure there's no need for me to explain, but I'll give some examples anyway; Algeria, Ethiopia, Madagascar, Equatorial Guinea or South Africa are all countries in Africa with VERY distinct cultures.

African includes all of the above, regardless of level of distinctiveness - I'd consider that obvious, to be honest. Or do you seriously want people to go into detail with every single statement? That would be... impractical.

If you wanted that, you can also forget about German, Spanish, French, most certainly European, .... because all of those are split into smaller and very distinct ones as well (just ask Catalans how Spanish they feel at times).
Once you start thinking about stuff like "what precise level of distinctiveness is acceptable in this generalization", you might as well not write anything at all <- getting back to the "walking on eggshells" thing.

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A great step toward eliminating racism would be to eliminate the thought of distinguishing people by the color of their skin. By promoting things, for good or bad, based solely on the skin is making a step backward in my humble opinion.

Amen to that.

I understand the goal is to combat racism and honestly, who wouldn't be on board with that*.
But events and actions such as these - even if they put a positive spin on it - only cement skin color as a factor of otherness, something to stick out and notice, to look at and gawk, to pity or celebrate. I fully agree that is counterproductive.

Meaning well and doing well are not the same thing.

It is also wholly irrelevant in game development.
Nobody* would avoid buying a game based on the skin color of the dev (who would even check for that in the first place?!).

Now, cultures on the other hand, I get.
African devs, Ukrainian devs, etc. - culture can have a strong influence on the game, so categorizing in that regard makes sense.
But skin color is not a culture. Other than for public social posturing, I really do not see the point.

Also, if I was of color, I'd sure as hell not want my game to sell because someone pitied me for my skin color, or wanted to flaunt their social stance with me - I'd much rather the game sold because people liked the game.

*yes, I know, there's always someone. But that someone is so statistically marginal that it doesn't matter.

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Hmmmm, with how badly Postal 4 went, I'm not sure what to think about this.
Two years later (or more?) and that game is still barely playable.

I am just not sure I trust these guys doing it better in a remake of Postal 2.

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https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2025/08/farlight-84-is-now-broken-on-linux-steamos-steam-deck/

(You even commented on the game not running before writing above comment...)

That's a multiplayer game.
For obvious reasons (and as I'm pretty sure I wrote above), MP games are exempt from this - they would run just fine, if the player wasn't flagged as cheater.

I did comment under the full assumption that that is the case - because, well, that's what it almost always is.

Oh! I do remember a crash now that I had under Proton when changing certain graphical settings in a game, maybe a year or two ago, which didn't happen under Windows.

However - that crash was unrelated to Proton, it was (IIRC) some sequence of AMD GPU calls (on Linux only) that would cause a crash no matter what tried to execute them. It was just through Proton and that game that I noticed - others had the same issue coming from other sources.

Nothing the dev could've done about it, either.

So yes, there was such a bug that did not happen under Windows. But it didn't affect my ability to play so I quickly forgot about it and don't really consider it important.

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On the question of how well Proton works vs. native, the thing about some of your points is that people expect Proton not to work. I mean, yeah, they figure it will work most of the time, but failure is part of the normal parameters of using a thing like Proton;

Maybe initially, when it all started out?
But I cannot even remember the last time Proton was not able to run a game. It must've been years ago.
For a while I checked ProtonDB before buying a game - I don't even do that anymore.

Besides, plenty devs officially support Proton at this point - of course people then expect it to work, just like they would with a native port.

At this point in time (with the exception of MP and VR games), Proton is very much a "it just works" thing. And widely perceived as that as well. You are honestly the first person I see viewing it so negatively.
And I talk to lots of Linux folk, and even more to gamers outside the Linux sphere (usually talking about the OS itself), all of which very much seem to think they could run their games very well on Linux (and they expect occasional fiddling), but they are intimidated by the OS itself.

You are really allowing your own exceptional experience to cloud your judgement of what most people see - for that, a look at ProtonDB reports is more than enough. Way over 90% silver+ for reported games puts failure outside of a "normal parameter" with Proton at this point.

Nobody reports it to the devs when they try a Windows game in Proton and it doesn't work; they know it's not supported.

That depends a bit on what your definition of "reporting to devs" is.
You can find plenty of bug reports of people running a game through Proton on Steam forums. Most of which of course not related to Proton.
But in the past, for example at least until Proton got its video support fixed, you could see a lot of issues raised ala "game works fine through Proton, but videos don't play" (remember that "TV test screen" thing?). Usually devs reacted to it, pretty much always others, with a variety of end results.
But it did get reported - official support or not.

If you are specifically talking about some dev-specific bug report channel, then yeah, you are probably right - but it's not like those are ever used by most people to begin with.
The vast majority of users, as in 90+%, do not ever use bug reporting features or "proper" channels (and I can tell you that from decades developing user-facing software) - and I'd wager gamers do it even less.

And again, lots of official Proton (often in the form of Steam Deck) support by now.

Then, it also depends on which dev you are talking about.
There is the Proton bug tracker, the Github one - obviously most people will never have a Github account, but considering that (and likely due to the higher amount of techies among Linux users) the amount of reports there are surprisingly high.
So, one could argue those very much report to the devs - the devs of Proton.
If some Proton-related bug is more likely to be fixed by the game dev or the Proton dev depends on the case.

It's not a symmetrical thing when it comes to how and whether people complain,

Oh, man, people complain. :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

Doesn't matter if anyone thinks it is "reasonable" or "plausible" - we are long past the times where one could expect people to behave in those categories, especially online.
If you think people wouldn't complain to a developer because something is not officially supported, then you live in extreme contrast to reality.

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Yet another regular day of live-services on Linux.

It's actually even a little worse than that.
I've seen some reports of developers (not necessarily game devs, but any coding) who are running some WSL ( Windows Subsystem for Linux ) for development - and somehow some of that running while a game was running triggered some anti cheat systems to flag them.

So even Windows people just running some Linux stuff for completely unrelated reasons get hit by this nonsense...

This will only stop if the share increases to something like 5-10%.
Or whatever number is needed for publishers to no longer outright ignore a chunk of their customers.

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We used to point out games not working well natively on Linux for what they are: bad ports.

We still do.

We used to ask for ports for each and every game we wanted to buy.

... which basically never worked for obvious reasons.
Even now, with a share quadruple of what it was it still wouldn't.

Devs either do a native port for intrinsic reasons or they don't - outside pressure from an absolute minority is a complete futility.

Nowadays not only "I can run it." seems to be enough for most people.

I am going to assume the first "not only" is too much, otherwise I don't get that sentence.
If you can run your game without issues, you can run your game without issues. If the performance is good, it is good.
Everything else is secondary at best.

They even started to actively ask developers to not port games.

If a dev already shows clear signs of not being up to the task of doing and supporting a proper native port, that's an extremely good suggestion.
We've had plenty low effort, zero support ports.
And we had plenty good intentions of devs, who then realized there is actually some work to supporting an additional platforms, and as a consequence stopped. I'd argue it objectively would have been better if those never even tried, because their failure story is guaranteed to carry more weight than any success story (negativity bias & media echo).

Devs already comfortable with Linux are very welcome to do a native port.
But those who never even touched Linux, have no real intention to, and only push the "export to Linux" button? That's a huge risk likely to come back to haunt Linux gaming as soon as a platform-specific bug arises.

They even started to attack fellow Linux games asking for ports.

Yeah, I doubt that - at least no more attacks than anywhere else on social media for any given topic or opinion.
People are people, the social climate is what we live in, it is what it is.

Using Proton will always be being second class citizen.

A clear improvement over what Linux used to be: no citizen at all, and third class or worse often enough even if there was a port.

Proton will always have to chase whatever Windows comes up with.
Proton can at most be on par, but never ahead.

Nice platitudes. But:

What more than "on par" do you need when it comes to video games?
What do you actually want to be ahead of?
Run them faster? Video games are mostly platform agnostic code, any kind of serious performance bottleneck will be cross-platform. At the bottom of it all is usually a C/C++ (or other low-level language) core that is standardized and will thus also behave the same no matter where. MSVC, gcc, Clang, etc all perform within 5-10% of each other, with differences only showing up in (surprise!) platform-specific code.

Features, like eg certain GPU techniques? May be thinkable, but that, too, is mostly hardware-bound.
But nobody would develop such a thing Linux-first, with a 2-3% share.

The gist of everything is that for anything serious to happen, the share has to rise.
That "No Linux support, no buy" crap didn't lead anywhere. Neither did the friendlier variant, the "Linux port pls" begging.
As Valve and years of dedicated work on compatibility layers has shown, you rise the share not by pestering devs with minority demands, but by ease of adaptation and support. And good hardware ideas.

But how about letting others have it their way?

Nobody is stopping you.
You'll just have to live with most people in the Linux community having realized by now that blind idealism leads nowhere and consequently calling others out when they show just that.
Somebody telling you to "just use Proton" is not an attack.

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