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PayPalA new topic to generate some discussion today is an ask the community section on why you think Steam itself is DRM?
First of all my opinion on the matter. I truly believe that Steam itself is not DRM any more than having to login to a website is which is what I like to call a "login wall" rather than having a plain download link for your games.
I am not alone in this argument either, it seems famed Linux porter Ryan Icculus Gordon also agrees:
Steamworks is not DRM, and does not require it, but way too many games do: "if !SteamAPI_Init() { exit(1); }"
— Ryan C. Gordon (@icculus) May 28, 2014
(Although, fwiw: if you have Steam running, even at the login screen with no net connection, SteamAPI_Init() will still succeed.)
Ryan C. Gordon (@icculus) May 28, 2014
If a developer doesn't do the above, Steam is simply a way to download games and keep them up to date and those games can be taken outside of Steam itself and ran without Steam. It's a developers choice on what they put in their games and that includes Steam's DRM options and that simple check pointed out by Ryan above.
For the people who do think it is DRM why do you feel that way? I would imagine it is because you need the Steam client itself, but once downloaded as mentioned above you can just move the games outside of Steam anyway, so how is that different than having to fire up a browser -> go to your favourite store -> login -> go to your library -> download -> then install/move it where you want? How is it that so different exactly that the Steam client itself suddenly becomes DRM?
I've never encountered anything as a result of using the Steam client that made me think it's getting in the way, but maybe that's just me.
It certainly would be good if developers could put up a notice to state their games run outside of Steam, that would help somewhat and there is nothing stopping them doing that.
So, I open up the floor to you readers to tell me why exactly you think the Steam client is DRM even with all of the above noted in your minds.
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Quoting: liamdaweQuoting: EvolutionaryIf there is no difference between a web login and a download client, why not just do the web portal login like GOG and HumbleBundle? Because there IS a difference. Otherwise Steam would have allowed both according to the user's preference.The reason is Steam WANTS people to use Steamworks which IS their DRM service that gives gamers added extras. That is the reason Steam doesn't do it and I thought that was completely obvious?
@Liamdawe
The extras could just be additional download links, just like GOG. Sorry, the logic doesn't fit. Code can be downloaded, and shouldn't need a client unless there are strings attached.
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Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?
Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!
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So long as one has to be logged into steam to play games it most definitely is DRM. I recognize that not all games use steamworks and some can be run after downloaded without steam being open (off the top of my head the newer Paradox games do this). However, I think there's very much a real tendency for devs to forgo the DRM-free route in order to utilize steam's features and that sort of scenario will become rarer and rarer.
I think the real question is whether or not it's healthy for the PC gaming industry if Steam becomes the only real option for games. I know that GOG, and to a less extent uplay and origin, offer some competition but I worry about the day where there'll be no choice. As has been pointed out by previous posters, we're only renting games from Steam and there is always the possibility of losing complete access via a ban on the account. It might be a bit of an alarmist notion but Valve takes a very sledgehammer approach to its customers. As far as I know, for example, a VAC ban years ago on Counter-Strike will still affect an account that has bought newer games which uses VAC but has never seen the user cheat or exploit the system.
I apologize if I've come off as ranting in advance and if I've been clumsy in expressing my concerns about centralization and lack of choice.
I think the real question is whether or not it's healthy for the PC gaming industry if Steam becomes the only real option for games. I know that GOG, and to a less extent uplay and origin, offer some competition but I worry about the day where there'll be no choice. As has been pointed out by previous posters, we're only renting games from Steam and there is always the possibility of losing complete access via a ban on the account. It might be a bit of an alarmist notion but Valve takes a very sledgehammer approach to its customers. As far as I know, for example, a VAC ban years ago on Counter-Strike will still affect an account that has bought newer games which uses VAC but has never seen the user cheat or exploit the system.
I apologize if I've come off as ranting in advance and if I've been clumsy in expressing my concerns about centralization and lack of choice.
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You cannot download a game without relying on a third-party product. I can download any GOG game without using their downloader. It's just a store. Steam, however, is a platform. One you _must_ use if you wish to download a game. And ocassionally, if you wish to play it. And very often, if you want full functionality - see all the DRM-free games that don't have feature X because feature X depends on you running Steam. Want Starbound beta? MUST use Steam. Want mods? MUST use Steam. With its slow, massive client, its community of troglodytes, and every other feature I do not want or need. I still have to deal with it, because otherwise my purchase will remain beyond the wall.
If Steam decides - for any reason (literally - read their TOS) - they want to remove a game? No more game. They don't like you? Removing your account / disabling access to your games is a piece of cake.
My expectation of a online store is that registering is enough - I don't then have to backup games in separate folders just to escape their goddamn client, I can download them using the same tool I use to download everything else.
Remember, it's Digital Restrictions Management. Using Steam, you're restricted in many, many ways. It's the worst sort of vendor lock-in. That, to me, is DRM. Silly protection schemes can be broken. Ask any Windows user. But there's no way around Steam. You just published the news that Bionic Dues is finally DRM-free - but since I got in a bundle previously, I don't have access to a DRM-free version (I misread...nevermind). I refuse to use their client. Therefore, I have no way to get a game I _payed_ money for. And I didn't buy it from Steam, either. But I'm still locked-in. It's a spider spreading its web all over the place (the, uhm, web). Same thing for Starbound. That's the last game I'll ever buy before it's finished. Because they went "well, fuck everyone not using Steam, no beta for them", I'm still waiting to play a game I pre-ordered when it was still screenshots, goodwill and smiles. By using Steam, you're sending the message it's okay to use Steam - and that it's okay to ignore customers who don't - because everyone's uses Steam, right? And thinks Gabe shits rainbows.
If Steam decides - for any reason (literally - read their TOS) - they want to remove a game? No more game. They don't like you? Removing your account / disabling access to your games is a piece of cake.
My expectation of a online store is that registering is enough - I don't then have to backup games in separate folders just to escape their goddamn client, I can download them using the same tool I use to download everything else.
Remember, it's Digital Restrictions Management. Using Steam, you're restricted in many, many ways. It's the worst sort of vendor lock-in. That, to me, is DRM. Silly protection schemes can be broken. Ask any Windows user. But there's no way around Steam. You just published the news that Bionic Dues is finally DRM-free - but since I got in a bundle previously, I don't have access to a DRM-free version (I misread...nevermind). I refuse to use their client. Therefore, I have no way to get a game I _payed_ money for. And I didn't buy it from Steam, either. But I'm still locked-in. It's a spider spreading its web all over the place (the, uhm, web). Same thing for Starbound. That's the last game I'll ever buy before it's finished. Because they went "well, fuck everyone not using Steam, no beta for them", I'm still waiting to play a game I pre-ordered when it was still screenshots, goodwill and smiles. By using Steam, you're sending the message it's okay to use Steam - and that it's okay to ignore customers who don't - because everyone's uses Steam, right? And thinks Gabe shits rainbows.
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I didn't read the other comments, I just want to put this here:
List of DRM-free games:
http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games
This means that if your game needs Steam to work, it's developer's fault. Steam allows full DRM-free games on its platform.
List of DRM-free games:
http://steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games
This means that if your game needs Steam to work, it's developer's fault. Steam allows full DRM-free games on its platform.
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Steamworks isn't DRM. It's a fantastic, multi-faceted extension to games that offer great benefits for users of it.
Steam is a store. They sell games. It's cheap and works extremely well.
Steam is also DRM. They manage our rights, digitally. We have the rights they and the developers choose to give us. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless we want to violate their ToS and risk our accounts being terminated if we get caught. If we do we lose everything we've bought, or rather "licensed for an unspecified amount of time".
A bladed instrument isn't automatically a weapon. Surgeons save lives with scalpels every single day. I use a knife to eat my dinner. Steam is a highly versatile bladed instrument, it is up to the developers how they want to wield it. Most misuse it. I have a tendency not to walk into a room if I know it'll be filled with people brandishing knives. Doesn't matter if there's one or two who are carving the finest of sculptures with theirs.
Or at least, I don't go into a room like that any more. I used to. 184 times to be exact. In my defence I was pushed into the room on the majority of those occasions after buying a boxed copy in an entirely different house and told I needed to go into the aforementioned room to use my copy at all. This is where the "knife to the throat" analogy should have been typed.
Steam is a store. They sell games. It's cheap and works extremely well.
Steam is also DRM. They manage our rights, digitally. We have the rights they and the developers choose to give us. Nothing more, nothing less. Unless we want to violate their ToS and risk our accounts being terminated if we get caught. If we do we lose everything we've bought, or rather "licensed for an unspecified amount of time".
A bladed instrument isn't automatically a weapon. Surgeons save lives with scalpels every single day. I use a knife to eat my dinner. Steam is a highly versatile bladed instrument, it is up to the developers how they want to wield it. Most misuse it. I have a tendency not to walk into a room if I know it'll be filled with people brandishing knives. Doesn't matter if there's one or two who are carving the finest of sculptures with theirs.
Or at least, I don't go into a room like that any more. I used to. 184 times to be exact. In my defence I was pushed into the room on the majority of those occasions after buying a boxed copy in an entirely different house and told I needed to go into the aforementioned room to use my copy at all. This is where the "knife to the throat" analogy should have been typed.
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Quoting: CloudwalkerQuoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!
Where is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....
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It is DRM, lose your password & see how many of those steam games will run.
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Quoting: killxdenQuoting: CloudwalkerWhere is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....
Go to the store, get the cd/dvd, bring it home and install it as many times as you like. Go to GOG.co, get the executable, install it as many times as you like. No difference. If the store closes down, you have the same problem as if GOG goes down, same thing if Steam goes down.
Except that with Steam, if they don't offer a game anymore, you lose access to your game. Someone cracks your password and gets you banned or steals your account? Lost access to your games, including the ones you have on your computer. You get banned, you now have hundreds of dollars in games now gone up in smoke. With GOG and physicals, you have control of the install once you buy the game and download it. You own the game. With Steam, you may as well be just renting it.
With Steam, you are forced to download their client, create an account and remain logged in, download the game, leave the client open and run the game. If you want to install it on other computers, you are forced to download their client again and have it running under your account in order to play. That is an added burden that you do not have with GOG/Physical installs (unless the physicals demand Steam/Origin/Uplay).
GOG distributes the self extracting installer that is independent of any client that you are not obligated to log in every time to install. You likewise don't have to go to the store you bought your game from every time you want to install it.
If a game is DRM free, don't buy it from Steam. I don't like monopolies and so many of the bigger developers are forcing their player base to use them (Steam) exclusively. It is like having to fill up your car's gas at only Chevron Gas stations because your car's manufacturer only wants you to use their service. Kind of like paying the mob off to do business.
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Quoting: killxdenQuoting: CloudwalkerWhere is the difference to gog.com then? You need to be online, you cant download any game without a browser and an account on their site. If their website is down you will be also fucked.Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!
If you want a backup then just go into you steam folder, make a tarball or whatever and move it to your NAS/external HDD... done. Same stuff. That obviously only counts for the drm free games on steam ....
The differences to gog.com is that I dont need a client to install the game and that I dont have to be online to install the game.
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