Quoting: PhiladelphusIndeed! I don't mind a healthy discussion. I think the disagreement here is fundamentally about the use of the term "Linux". You seem to be using it (correct me if I'm wrong) as if "Linux" is a single operating system in contrast to Windows and macOS.

Ah - great that you pointed that out cause I've seen others made this point too I've just not gotten to comment on it:

Had this change been done by one - or a few - distros, if they forked the toolset and added some extra "padding", I'd simply said "whatever rocks their boat", shrugged and proceed without a single objection. I have ZERO objections to KDE implementing this in their store front, for example. Quite the contrary: That's the way to do it!

But here we talk about a change of APT, the tool used by every single Debian derivative, and that's a lot (most??) of distros across the entire spectrum, from the most specialised fringe distro to the mainline dominators and everything between.

Quoting: PhiladelphusThe number of different Linux distros is its ultimate strength

... But also one of the major weaknesses. It's very much a double edged sword. The many distros must take a good share of the blame for why a lot of developers of consumer software are very very hesitant with supporting Linux.

Additionally, for a newbie the absurd amount of distros is something that makes Linux a very fragmented and confusing landscape to navigate. They want the "best" distro - but what's the best for them? Ask in any Linux forum or group and you will receive at LEAST ten suggestions, all being as insistent as the next.

So already THERE this platform lose out on the "newbie friendliness" - before you've installed a single byte on your drive you need to have had the motivation to look into this, read and learn.
That's the "system camera" for you.

Now, I love the "chaos" of the distros. I don't want this to change.
But an extension of that is that I think the struggle to "beat" the other two on user friendlyness has died even before it started. It's a REASON Linux has 1% of the desktop share. And it's not only because of corporate domination and their marketing engines.

Quoting: Philadelphuseveryone should be able to at least handle basic computing tasks on a Linux-based OS.

I think they can, today. This incident with the Steam package was an unfortunate but also very very rare case.

But something this discussion has shown me is that there probably already are more "casual" users of Linux than I have been aware of. I'll admit that. Every single Linux user I know in real life has been techies. No exception. And my perception is probably very influenced by that. It does not mean they all "compile their kernels" (I've never done so!) but they have the basic understanding and the interest intact.

For me, that's been "the norm" up until now. So my perspective has undergone a transformation and become more nuanced thanks to this discussion in particular. And for that I thank you all!

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Quoting: PhiladelphusMost people aren't interested in how computers work, they just want them to work.

Exactly! And that's totally fine!
And then we're back to what was my original point, when I uttered the now evidently controversial words that I don't subscribe to the idea of "Linux for everyone". No OS is for everyone - Windows is really not for me - and I see no point in even wanting all three to be as similar as possible to "please all".

To repeat my comparison with cameras (won't blame you if you missed it in this chaos :) ): A smart phone, a pocket camera and system camera can all produce great pictures. Some are best off using their phone for their pics, others have good reasons to get a dedicated pocket camera, while others again should definitely go for the system camera. They are three different offerings with each their pros and cons. As is how I also see OsX, Windows and Linux.

Linux is the "system camera" in this comparison. I think one should have the motivation to walk that extra mile to learn that OS properly. Because there are some core differences between Linux and the others.

Or to use your car example: Some is best suited with a new Toyota with zero maintenance, while others can't wait to get the grease from a 70' Porche on their hands. Different needs, different cars.

That's simply my point. Of whom many disagree. And, again, that's totally fine!

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyBut it's not '99 any more. If I started today, I wouldn't have had to do any of that stuff. And I wouldn't have done it, because I only did it because I had to. I wasn't on a voyage of discovery, I was just trying to un-break stuff.

But that's how you learn!!

And also, back in that era the Linux desktop were in a totally different and extremely premature state. Remember that we didn't even have a unison clipboard across applications? Some applications used this clipboard, others used another solution for it and some simply didn't have it implemented. Same with drag'n'drop. :D

So the problem back then were that shit didn't really work properly at all, especially on the graphical user interface side of things. They were downright horrible. The package management and the repositories too were a completely different story.

But today things work! And work really well. Just with not too many crutches or rescue parachutes. Lean and mean, and with all power to the user.

I like that. As you've probably figured out by now. :)

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyI started somewhere around the turn of the millennium--not sure which side, might have been '99 or so. My first distro was Red Hat.

Hey thanks for that rundown! And I see nothing in this story that indicates that your kind is what I had in mind when I said "not for everyone". Quite the contrary. You've had issues and overcame them. Of course, it always sucks when something breaks - and especially when you have no idea why. It's like that for everyone.

But you've overcome the obstacles and I am pretty sure you also have learnt from it. And you kept going. That's what a Linux user IS, in my book.

The only point you might disagree with me on here, is that I think it's a GOOD thing to have a system as open as Linux. I will defend the right of this OS, of all the alternatives out there, to be a bit different. To demand - even expect - something of the user. Not in regards to the amount of knowledge - but the willingness to obtain that knowledge.
Like you have, by sticking to your gun.

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Quoting: Nocifer

Quoting: BeamboomThose who just want a consumer box to do their gaming on - why on earth should they install Linux to begin with?

For the same reasons they use Windows maybe, but without the added hurdles of e.g. license costs and telemetry spying?

Those added "hurdles" are nothing compared to the hurdles of subpar performances, limited multiplayer support and core titles that just won't run. Or the hurdles of custom configurations, additional launch parameters or manual corrections of config files in the install.

If your focal point is gaming - a machine to game on, that's the primary function - if you want to get the most out of your games then I guess this is another controversial claim but here goes:
If you just want to play Windows games, install Windows.

There are no rational technical reason to install Linux on your PC just to play Windows games, especially not if you're not even familiar with Linux. If you are a normal PC gamer with no tinker interests you should do what the vast majority already does: Use the OS all the games are built for.

Gaming on Linux is for those of us who use Linux for reasons outside of gaming.
Those reasons might well be of ethical/philosophical character, political character (anti-mainstream, anti-corporation, political statement), it doesn't need to be of technical character. But the majority of "regular" users do not share that political focus - they want a machine to game on.

Now, this is the point where of course the Steam Deck is interesting to introduce in this dialogue. How will that affect the game market? Too early to say for sure but it's already interesting things happening.

However, at the current state Windows gaming is best on Windows. And tbh I don't see that changing in quite a long time yet.

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyYou led off with "I simply do not subscribe to the idea of "Linux for everyone"". Then you started talking about all the "everyone" it was not for, and I recognised myself among them.

I know I tend to paint with quite broad brushes when I express myself, so this is probably my fault. :)

But let's talk about you:
How long have you been using Linux now, and what's your opinion on the OS thus far, generally speaking? What made you install Linux the first time, how was that installation process for you, and what made you decide on distro?
Have you ever experienced anything that made your system unstable or did something you had to revert?

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Quoting: GuestI have to disagree with your definition of what GNU/Linux is. It doesn't have to be not so easy for people who only know Windows.

On a very fundamental level I would argue it is. Because they won't live in a bubble with just that one distro they have chosen and the eco system around it.

They will read, hear, get confused and distracted by all those other distros and alternative technologies related to Linux out there. Just take a look at any Linux user group on any social media platform. Those users will eventually join a handful of those. Look at the advice and claims posted there. Suddenly you need a special distro if you're gonna produce music. Or if you're gonna do this - or that. Not to mention the endless discussions about what is the best Linux gaming distro.

Shit like that matters - and it confuses the hell out of anyone not yet proficient enough on Linux to ignore all that nonsense.

And that's just the user groups!

All in all, they WILL soon enough be force fed the complexity and quite unstructured reality of Linux. This is just how it is. And this will not change!

Quoting: GuestBut again, different distros for different people.

If this was one distro making a fork of apt with their own mechanics, I'd just shrug my shoulders and just say, "cool enough but not for me" and proceed.

But when they make changes to the Debian package system they make changes on one of the major package management systems on the entire Linux eco system. An enormous amount of distros. It will affect all use cases there is that runs on a Debian derivative.
And that's when I say, "hold your horses, we don't do that shit because of one broken Steam package and a youtubers ignorance".

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyUm, but Beamboom is literally and specifically saying that nobody who wants to just click "go" should be using Linux. At all. Ever.

Literally? And specifically? Well then, please quote me. It should be very easy to find those quotes, since that's what I am literally saying.

What I do say, is that those who do intend to use Linux should be willing to learn it for what it is. They should have the mindset and attitude of wanting to learn a new operating system. And they should be made aware of what Linux is.

I don't want to keep anyone from using or wanting to use Linux. But they should approach on Linux' premises, and yes - they might screw up in the process.
Linux is a much more open, modular system than the other two. The users must relate to that. They should use Linux for what it IS - and it is not just some political statement, a rage against the establishment. It's not a toy to pose with, a symbol.
It is a a very unique platform with a lot that separates it from the other two OSes. By comparison it is an exceptionally fragmented and complex landscape.

Just the mere fact that there's several different audio architectures on Linux! That does almost the same for most users, only not exactly and in different ways! Just to pull out but one small example. We all could make a list with examples like that.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBeamboom is literally saying that Linux should not only remain used by only a minority on the desktop, but specifying just who that minority should be allowed to be

Again: Nonsense. I am saying that Linux will never be the major mainstream desktop OS because of what it is. Just like a system camera is not for everyone, Linux is not for everyone. But if someone wants to learn to use a system camera - go right ahead! Just don't expect it to be used like a pocket camera - nor should they TRY to!

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd yes, I'm going to get "hot under the collar" when I'm told that people like me shouldn't have been allowed in the club.

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You need to cool your collar her :) . Nobody here tells you so.

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Quoting: Liam DaweThis is a false comparison, and not one you can really make against much in this situation. We're not talking about a specialised field in any way - this is general purpose computing.

Actually, when I did the comparison between Linux and Formel 1 I for the first time in this discussion actually DID feel elitish... That was a horribly cocky, snobbish comparison :D

I should perhaps rather compare it with cameras? For a lot of people the camera on their smart phone is the best option and fully cover their use case. Some should rather go for the possibilities offered by pocket cameras. And absolutely not everyone needs or should use a system camera.
All three can produce great images. Still they are not equal.

Some things require a different skill level than others by the very nature of what it is.
And thus we are full circle now, because I honestly - and without wanting to leave anyone out like a bouncer but rather the consequence of a more realistic perspective on what Linux IS:
I seriously do not believe Linux is for everyone. It doesn't belong to the mainstream on the same level as MacOS and Windows.

There's too much chaos in the Linux world. Wonderful chaos. Just the very existence of the ridiculous amount of distros, a majority of whom there's no objective need for. That is one hell of a confusing nightmare to greet a newbie with right there.

Then you got the modular design. "Linux" is not one thing, as we all know. The system varies not only between the distros, but also depending on how the individual user has rigged their system.
Absolutely everything is accessible, configurable, replaceable, interchangeable.
All great stuff, but it requires something from the user.

Linux is the system camera of the OS world.

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Quoting: AussieEeveeThis is a controversial opinion because it's the definition of gatekeeping, and it is time gatekeeping stopped happening.

Is it gatekeeping to say that not everyone should be placed behind the wheels of a Formel 1 car? Is it gatekeeping to say that some products require more of a user than others, or that they are meant for different segments of the market? Is it really gatekeeping to mean anything else other than that everything should be made for everyone and everyone should be able to use everything?

Quoting: AussieEeveeAnd yes, it's pathetic that it took a guy like Linus to discover a major problem with the way apt handles packages. This nonsense should have been fixed years ago.

The problem here was an error in the Steam package, presumably the control file/install script. There never was any problems with how APT handles packages. It just did as instructed, related to the dependencies specified in that control file.

What kind of script error should we be protected against next? There's plenty of shenanigan that could be done with a python script. Or if the user runs a shell script he copied from the web and didn't understand the content of. Of course as root, cause that's how he runs everything.

Do we want Linux to become MacOS? Cause this is essentially what Apple did with their Unix distro: Made it "fool proof" against pretty much any activity outside the designated and verified workflow.

Quoting: AussieEeveeI get it. You want your tough as nails, punishing, extremely hard to use operating system. That's YOUR idea of an OS.

Come on man. This discussion is enough polarised as it is, without the need to project falsified opinions like that and argue against it.

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