Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: melkemindI don't see how Ouya and Steam Machines should even be mentioned in the same sentence, other than their lack of big commercial success. While Ouya is a failed console that is no longer supported, anyone who bought a Steam Machine still has a working PC that can continue to run Linux games.

I'm honestly not sure if I should respond to this, because I'm not interested in being antagonistic. I just wish the Linux community would be more cautious about these things.

Anyway, I mention them because the market conditions of all are fairly similar when considering their commercial viability. They might find success if they do something like System 76, but why bother with Atari when System 76 has a proven track record and has been focused on Linux from conception?

Did I missed something? Did System 76 create a console sized computer for sofa gaming (because that WAS the main point of the Ouya and that IS the main point of the Steam Machines)?! Please show me, it would be an insta buy.

System 76 has taken the developper stuff path, lately... I don't see a gaming console fitting in that philisophy. Yet, it would be nice.

There is the Meerkat that comes close, but the price bracket is prohibitive, imo. No serious GPU (Intel Iris), i3 for the lowest price system, 4Gb RAM, no controller... 550$... Ouch! Doesn't make the Atari VCS or Steam Machines irrelevant at all.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: melkemindI don't see how Ouya and Steam Machines should even be mentioned in the same sentence, other than their lack of big commercial success. While Ouya is a failed console that is no longer supported, anyone who bought a Steam Machine still has a working PC that can continue to run Linux games.

I'm honestly not sure if I should respond to this, because I'm not interested in being antagonistic. I just wish the Linux community would be more cautious about these things.

Anyway, I mention them because the market conditions of all are fairly similar when considering their commercial viability. They might find success if they do something like System 76, but why bother with Atari when System 76 has a proven track record and has been focused on Linux from conception?

Did I missed something? Did System 76 create a console sized computer for sofa gaming (because that WAS the main point of the Ouya and that IS the main point of the Steam Machines)?! Please show me, it would be an insta buy.

System 76 has taken the developper stuff path, lately... I don't see a gaming console fitting in that philisophy. Yet, it would be nice.

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Quoting: jensYep, that's why I want the "man in the middle", to make sure that my purchase counts as a Linux sell.

Sometimes things are clear in your head, but you fail to make it apparent on the paper... Realized I didn't mentionned that part anywhere. My bad! I was two or three shots further than that, but yeah that's the basic reason. Lol!

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Quoting: Patola

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: MohandevirMore than that, an update on an unsuported game may totally break wine support at any moment. Want non-techy users to deal with that?

Sure, but so can the game break, after porters aren't supporting it anymore. So what has higher chances to last longer? I'd bet on the FOSS option in such case. It doens't mean I propose to always use Wine instead of native rewrites, but simply point out that Wine makes it very viable without porters involved already.

You are right. Wine makes it viable. This is where it ends. It will never show up on GoG store, Steam and the likes, in this state. Like it or not, in 2018, this is the name of the game, unless your goal is to keep Linux an elitists platform that only tech-savy people use. If that is your point of view, fine, but this discussion is pointless; we have diverging goals, from the start.

What are you talking about? There are already a lot of games which are wine-wrapped. From the top of my head I can recall at least three that I own -- Two Worlds (GOG), Enclave and Limbo (Steam). I only found out about Limbo after having finished it. In fact, I think the majority of old windows games in GOG that run on Linux are not ports but wine-wrapped versions.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. GoG is taking the responsability of the wine wrapped game and I'm totally fine with that. Where did I mentionned it didn't already exist? Your quotes are in the wrong context.

My original post:

Quoting: MohandevirLooking at it the other way... If (and there is a lot of them), as an example, GoG decides to use DXVK + Wine, wraps The Witcher 3 with home made hacks, get good performances out of it and put it's official support stamp on it... Is it that bad? As long as there is an entity in charge of maintaining the build, just like Feral does, personnally, I'm fine with that.

Edit: Your quotes are referring to the part when I'm talking about games where the user has to manage wine.

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Quoting: nox

Quoting: MohandevirNot much. But believe me, my experience with multiple newcomers to Linux showed me that it doesn't take much to make them drop. From the start, the UI needs adaptation and then apps that are replaced by new ones (even if they are more performant)... Then you add a tool that doesn't work the same way as on "the other OS"... You get a: "I quit" pretty fast.

Edit: In fact my most successfull conversion experience was with my 74 years old father... He had no Windows background. Lol!

Don't think many can argue against this, but this goes no matter what. Even Linux people giving a different DE a go can end up with the same reaction. People for the most part don't like change, and that's something that will always be an issue no matter how well wine, and even native games, works.

That is why the transition has to be as smooth as possible if the goal is to bring new users to Linux. We have to keep in mind that Windows users are used to being taken charge of by their usual OS, telling them what to do and what they have to like. :)

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: MohandevirIt always comes to the same thing: You need to provide the windows installer. This is not a solution for beginners.

How is it harder than using the installer on Windows? GOG provide installers for instance, you just install them on Linux, using needed tools. The benefit of PlayOnLinux, Lutris and other wrapper scripts is that they simplify Wine configuration.

Not much. But believe me, my experience with multiple newcomers to Linux showed me that it doesn't take much to make them drop. From the start, the UI needs adaptation and then apps that are replaced by new ones (even if they are more performant)... Then you add a tool that doesn't work the same way as on "the other OS"... You get a: "I quit" pretty fast.

Edit: In fact my most successfull conversion experience was with my 74 years old father... He had no Windows background. Lol!

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: MohandevirTrue enough. Forgot about flatpaks and snap apps too. Still, I don't know how they can handle non-free games to stay legit...

Same as POL / Lutris do I suppose. They provide scripts to set up the environment for Wine, but you still need to provide the installer for the actual game first.

It always comes to the same thing: You need to provide the windows installer. This is not a solution for beginners. Maybe snap apps and/or flatpaks will appear in online stores, in the futur, but is there any advantages to a standard wine-wrapped game?

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Quoting: nox

Quoting: MohandevirThinking about my 10 years old son setting up DXVK and wine to play a game... Not. He's going to switch back to the PS4 in 2 seconds.

While this isn't completely relevant to the ideas that are being discussed:
Honestly, now that lutris installers are starting to adopt it we aren't far away from where a 10 year old can easily install DXVK+wine+a game.

True enough. Forgot about flatpaks and snap apps too. Still, I don't know how they can handle non-free games to stay legit...

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: MohandevirEdit: Thinking about it, even if there is a middleman to support the game, for those that needs wants it, nothing prevents you from downloading the Windows version and hack DXVK + Wine to your need. One doesn't forbide the other. Linux as always been about choices. :)

To be clear, I have nothing against supported releases, I prefer them even. Since it shows that developers care about Linux gaming if they support the game. I was just pointing out, that in a way, Wine gives us more choice than some publishers who decide what to release for Linux (and where), and what not.

And, for my part, I use DXVK + Wine to play Witcher 3. :D

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: MohandevirYou are right. Wine makes it viable. This is where it ends. It will never show up on GoG store, Steam and the likes, in this state.

Sure, but that goes back to my previous point - you don't need extra middlemen, if you already can play it. Some like this formal "it's supported" idea, and sure, it's good. But not necessary often :) Linux was always about doing something without gatekeepers telling you how to, so this fits the idea well.

Thinking about my 10 years old son setting up DXVK and wine to play a game... Not. He's going to switch back to the PS4 in 2 seconds.

This said, I totally understand your point of view but it's only acceptable for the 0.5% of gamers that likes to hack the system. The true gamers, that will make Linux a viable gaming platform, just wants to "plug & play". Without a middleman to officially support the game, it's dead in the water.

Edit: Thinking about it, even if there is a middleman to support the game, for those that wants it, nothing prevents you from downloading the Windows version and hack DXVK + Wine to your need. One doesn't forbide the other. Linux as always been about choices. :)

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