Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

I dunno about your distro, but on Mint if I go to my "Software Manager" (which uses the package manager under the hood of course), and look at the "Games" category, all the games there will be FOSS games and I can readily download and install them. Of course they don't cost any money, so as stores go it's a store where everything's on a 100% off sale. But other than that I don't see much difference from a "Game store".

I just a couple of days ago finished (re)playing a game I installed that way--"Ur-Quan Masters", the FOSS port of Star Control II.

im okay with just using steam TBH.

Star Control is one of the best games ever made for the Amiga.. fond memories. I shall have to try Ur-Quan Masters.

Really, IMO it stands up surprisingly well. I still find it a lot of fun.

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Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Lofty(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

Quoting: GuestI think it's generally called a package manager.

Do they feature exclusively non foss gaming software?

I dunno about your distro, but on Mint if I go to my "Software Manager" (which uses the package manager under the hood of course), and look at the "Games" category, all the games there will be FOSS games and I can readily download and install them. Of course they don't cost any money, so as stores go it's a store where everything's on a 100% off sale. But other than that I don't see much difference from a "Game store".

I just a couple of days ago finished (re)playing a game I installed that way--"Ur-Quan Masters", the FOSS port of Star Control II.

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Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI'll be frank: I think modern invocation of that saying stems largely from fuzzy thinking (which is also generally the condition under which good intentions lead to bad outcomes, and it would be a lot more relevant to say so than to blame the good intentions themselves).

That sounds like a weird form of relativism

Relativism?! I have no idea how you pull that out of what I said.

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Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: dubigrasuwe have a saying: befriend the devil until you cross the bridge.

we also have a saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I've always hated that particular saying. Cuz, you know, it isn't. Sure, you can cherry pick cases where good intentions lead to bad outcomes.. But come on, what's it supposed to mean?

Cherry pick or not it still works in it's intended usage in the moment. It is supposed to mean that an unintended consequence creating a perceived negative outcome is as a result of good will to adapt or improve something, but it actually makes the end result worse. Quite obviously, this does not apply to everything, but it doesn't need to as you wouldn't be using that phrase if you didn't think a worse outcome had happened.. of course that is all perception, a perceived truth.

QuoteDoes it mean you should have BAD intentions so you go to Heaven? What?

il quote the wiki on this: "Hell is full of good meanings, but heaven is full of good works"
given it's biblical context, im guessing the answer to your question is no. It's just a proverb.


actually the wikipedia article on this is fairly self explanatory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions
(there is an example in there also)

again the wiki:

Quotewriting about altruism, suggests that good intentions are often not what they seem and that mankind normally acts from less worthy, selfish motives—"If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, it is partly because that is the road they generally start out on."

Which is another perspective. I hadn't applied this to Linux gaming using proton/wine, initially at least. But then again perhaps valves good intentions had a predefined path to begin with(they are a corporation after all). Perhaps a perceived good intention by the community was merely an illusion to draw you into a kind of vendor lock in on an open platform.. but that's too cynical i guess.

Back on topic,
i have had access to so many more titles because of proton and they worked better than native in many instances. Given valve have tried the push for native already and it largely didn't work this is the only option left on the table. But to assume altruism from valves part would be naive, they knew their path alright.


(other thoughts, Steam is not the only way to game on Linux. Perhaps one day we might see some sort of opensource gaming store that is fully independent of anything we have now but the question is would you actually want to play any of those titles?)

I'll be frank: I think modern invocation of that saying stems largely from fuzzy thinking (which is also generally the condition under which good intentions lead to bad outcomes, and it would be a lot more relevant to say so than to blame the good intentions themselves).
But I think the original saying comes from,yes, an older Christian context and basically means that what seems like reasonable ethics may contradict what the priests tell you the will of God says--and under those circumstances, you best be listening to the priests. Or else. Going around listening to your good intentions instead of authority is the way to heresy, so cool it with the thinking for yourself.
So in both modern and earlier contexts, I'm not a big fan.

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After musing a bit longer, I think Ethan Lee has a point, but it's a limited one. That is, I think he may be right that it's going to be hard to get work porting games to Linux, which is hard on him and I'm sorry for it, and yet I think going forward a successful Steam Deck will still lead to more native Linux games.
Let me lay out a couple of distinctions. So, up to now, most games have run on Proton as it were by co-incidence. The makers of those games have no interest in Linux, may have barely heard of Linux, and the fact that the games run is all down to the hard work and talents of the Wine and Proton and DXVK developers. There seem to be a few exceptions to this, we've lately seen game developers say things about trying to ensure their game runs well on Proton, but it seems fairly rare. So, we have a big population of games and developers that don't give a hoot about Linux, and many of the games run on Proton despite this.

So then there are the somewhat smaller group of developers who do care about Linux somewhat. What impact has Proton had, up to now, on that smaller group? Well, it doesn't seem to have really stopped people from developing games in cross-platform ways that include Linux, as far as I can tell. There's still a strong stream of new games supporting Linux from the beginning. Maybe it's tailed off a bit since the heady days when people thought the Steam Machines might be a thing, but that's been a long gradual thing and I haven't noticed it getting worse since Proton. One might have expected that to happen, but I don't think it did.

But it does seem like the existence of Proton has already reduced the viability of the porting business as such; note the way Feral has basically moved on from doing that and nobody has really replaced them. Why spend all that money and effort porting an existing game when it probably works fine on Proton already, or can be made to do so pretty easily?

If the Steam Deck succeeds, it seems like it will greatly increase the number of developers giving Linux a thought at all. Steam's increased emphasis on Proton, both in terms of telling developers about it and improving the technology itself, does make it even less likely that developers thinking about Linux will bother porting existing games. And even though there will be a lot more of them, Ethan Lee might be quite right that the chance they'll bother doing a port will drop so low that there will still be a lot fewer ports happening. Anyone who just started thinking about Linux because of the Steam Deck will, when looking at their back catalogue, surely conclude that as long as the games run on Proton that should be fine--any improvement wouldn't be worth the cost and effort of making a port. Ryan Gordon may indeed be disappointed if he tries to persuade more people to port their existing games.

But new games, and the decision to target Linux or not from the beginning, is a different question. Going forward, there will be two factors--on one hand, Linux has far more visibility and users than before; on the other, that target can at least somewhat be satisfied by paying attention to having it work in Proton. Which factor will dominate? Based on what we've seen to date, with that side being less impacted by Proton, I think it's likely the first factor will dominate and overall, while some developers may not build for Linux because Proton is good enough, the gain from it being a bigger platform will be greater.

So if I had to make a guess I'd expect, if the Steam Deck is a big success, in the end we'll see fewer ports but more games built Linux native from the start. Which suggests that Mr. Lee and Mr. Gordon's best bet might be to shift to consulting on how to properly do cross-platform Linux friendly development on new games, rather than porting old ones. Although I'd certainly be happy enough to see Valve hire Ethan Lee, as he suggests, to work on infrastructure.

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Quoting: jensThis blog post appeared on the GoL discord server:
https://mdiluz.micro.blog/2021/07/19/native-linux-ports.html
It's an interesting read and adds another perspective to that discussion.

It is an interesting read. On one hand, it's pretty explicitly saying that Proton or something like it (with the needed ingredients of Vulkan and stuff like DXVK) is the solution.
On the other, it strikes me as implicitly (although the poster himself maybe has a blind spot for that because his background is very specifically in porting existing games) supporting the point made often but in this thread mainly by CatKiller, that it's best to develop cross-platform from the start rather than developing with an orientation to one platform and then having to make tons of changes to port to another.

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Quoting: Lofty

Quoting: dubigrasuwe have a saying: befriend the devil until you cross the bridge.

we also have a saying: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I've always hated that particular saying. Cuz, you know, it isn't. Sure, you can cherry pick cases where good intentions lead to bad outcomes. But come on, what's it supposed to mean? Does it mean you should have BAD intentions so you go to Heaven? What?
There's plenty of intentions out there that aren't good, and they are what cause most of the problems.

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It strikes me that Lee's reaction is kind of forgetting that all the existing Linux desktops, that up to now have been the only reason for releasing native Linux games, will still be there after the Steam Deck releases. Even if people targeting the Steam Deck ignore native releases, that doesn't actually shrink the incentive to release native. So I think he might be overreacting.

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Quoting: scaineThese are all local vulnerabilities - can't be exploited remotely. I, uh, can't really get very excited by such things unless they're feasibly chained with a remote exploit.

You say that now, but wait till your 10 year old daughter hacks your computer and says your data doesn't get unransomed until she gets all the cookies.

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Quoting: CatKillerIt's why they tried to get other people to make Steam Machines, why they're content to sell limited numbers of the premium Index, and why they're so relaxed about other companies making Steam Decks. If they want to sell as many units of the Steam Deck as they can they'll need to get all the trappings of a hardware retailer; otherwise they'll be limited to just selling a few units in a handful of countries.

Couldn't they just sell 'em on Amazon and let Amazon's warehouses handle the logistics?

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