Quoting: Pyratecrowdtrike and co.

Greatest. Typo. Ever.

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Quoting: PhiladelphusI think part of it is that some Linux DEs mimic the desktop paradigm of older Windows versions much closer than MacOS does, which masks the differences.

The thing is, that can be entirely enough for a sizable category of use cases. Sure, look just a bit under the surface and it's different . . . but many users don't do that, so for them it is not different. My wife, for instance, uses the browser and makes documents and that is almost it. She just got a new computer, which I put Linux on. I moved her files and browser bookmarks across from her old Chromebook (which was slowly dying), put browser launchers and LibreOffice Writer on the taskbar, showed her where her files are, and after a short breaking in period she's happy with it. She may or may not ever even look at the menus to see what other software is loaded in there. So for her there is no functional difference between Chromebook, Linux Mint, and Windows . . . except that Windows is nagware and its frequent vaguely ominous popups would make her anxious.

At some point she will want to fiddle with a picture or something and she will experience a real OS being better than ChromeOS.

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Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualUltimately it's their computer and their choice. Let them ask you, if they care at all.

That's exactly it. :smile:

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualAnd lastly...Linux is not the solution to Windows problems, so it shouldn't be presented like it is when someone asks for help with their Windows computer.

When should it be presented as an option? When someone is looking for a new computer or wondering if there's something better. They've now demonstrated willingness to uproot their current computing lifestyle and try something new, something few people are brave enough or have enough time to do. You can't convince someone to try something new; they need to be open to it already, and when they are, you're presenting an option, not trying to convince them of something.

Precisely. :smile: And it's important to point out that the Linux option isn't Windows, and that things aren't going to act the same, and that the software you'll use won't be the same. I know that sounds like common-sense, but for some reason, though people are fine with adjusting to the differences that MacOS has from Windows, they don't seem to approach Linux like that for some strange reason. :huh:

I dunno. I have recent experience suggesting that for at least some people, if you have the menu and "turn it off" stuff in the lower left and a taskbar on the bottom with a few launch icons, they don't really notice the difference.

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That looks less like a jaggedy straight line and more like an upwards-pointed curve. Nice.

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Quoting: WoodlandorSeems a little strange how they could have programmed it in a way for a simple launcher of sorts to corrupt the user space.

Then again, I remember the original release of Bungie’s Myth 2 Soulblighter had a bug where if you went to uninstall the game it would recursively delete every directory on the C: drive 😂

So all we know is game programmers shouldn’t drink Mountain Dew and program… for everyone’s safety 🤷‍♂️

Appropriate name, I guess . . . that would blight your soul! :grin:

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Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI've been using Linux for, I dunno, 25 years or something and I really hate this attitude. I don't think it's reasonable to condemn everyone who isn't a techie to fucking Windows. And I think this idea that somehow it's better if Linux stays crappy so you can keep everyone out is absolutely moronic.

Here is the point that I made: .
Here is the point you are arguing against: *points three screens to the right*

You are generally reasonable, so I guess you just got triggered by the word "gatekeeping".
Really a word that gets a lot of undeserved hate - it is a good and necessary process of community shaping.

Linux isn't a community. It's an operating system.
Free Software isn't a community either. It's arguably an ideology . . . or rather, a fragment of ideology that fits well into several quite different overall ideologies.
Both of them work better the more people are using them. Restricting Linux use either to "just techies" or "just people I like" or (quoting you here) "5-10% user share on PC" (presumably the good, superior 5-10%) is a terrible and counterproductive idea. In fact Linux aside, the general idea of "only the worthy should get (X), and I or some self-anointed priesthood should get to decide who is worthy" is pretty much always terrible.

So no, I didn't get triggered by the word "gatekeeping". I got triggered by the concept "gatekeeping". I may have mischaracterized your criteria on who you want to gatekeep; the general idea remains a terrible one.

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Purple Library GuyYou don't have to do techie-type stuff to use Linux, and that's as it should be. You do have to do techie-type stuff . . . to do techie-type stuff on Linux, like install alpha software from GitLab.

That's not true and you know it.
Sometimes you DO end up having to do techie-type stuff on Linux. It is unavoidable as soon as you try to do anything outside of whatever default confinement your distro puts you in.
It happens rarely, which I agree is great, but it does happen. I'd argue it happens in every OS, too - the great thing about Linux is that the user can rather easily resolve it by following guides while Windows starts really getting in the way at this point.

Well . . . OK, there you have a point. Even I recently had to do some stuff because I'd bought a brand new cheapo laptop and a piece or two of the hardware were too new and device drivers were a problem. Luckily I got good help and was able to fix the issue perfectly. And it was very useful to me that I listened to that help and applied it as directed.

Although as to my distro's default confinement . . . well, I pick my distro so that the things I want done will be things the distro is doing for me. I just want to use the computer, I don't have an interest in finding funky ways to fiddle with it. Web browsing, word processing, the occasional spreadsheet, some games, watch a video, fiddle with pictures a bit, a calculator, that kind of stuff, and I'm good. I have no reason to want to escape my distro's "default confinement".

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As a Canadian, I believe I was brought up with "defence". Increasingly I find I'm being herded towards "defense" by American spell-checkers.

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Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: tuubiSadly, gatekeepers tend to pop up in every community.

Quoting: tuubiSadly, gatekeepers tend to pop up in every community.
Linux is for everyone, and we were all newbies once.

If you really like something, and you don't want it to change into something you don't like anymore, gatekeep.
You can still be welcoming, those are not mutually exclusive, but you have to have standards of who you do and who you do not want as a new part of the community. I don't think there is an alternative - only each person's standards will be different here.

I support people who are willing to learn, I do not support people who are not.
Yes, we were all newbies once ... now try to remember how we managed to not be that anymore - were we, maybe, willing to learn? Curious? Persistent? Did we take the advice of those knowing more than us?

I've been alive long enough to see many, many things and communities to be so friendly and welcoming to anyone new that they bent over backwards, broke and are now not even recognizable anymore.
If you measure only by the number of users, that strategy of self-abandonment is often successful.
Personally, I do not measure success like that and I'd be perfectly fine if Linux never went to or over 5-10% user share on PC - it is not for everyone (only for everyone willing to learn every once in a while) and pretending this to be different is silly.

I've been using Linux for, I dunno, 25 years or something and I really hate this attitude. I don't think it's reasonable to condemn everyone who isn't a techie to fucking Windows. And I think this idea that somehow it's better if Linux stays crappy so you can keep everyone out is absolutely moronic.

A good operating system is one where things Just Work. I went through dependency hell back in the day because I really hated Windows for both practical and political reasons, but it sucked; I am extremely happy things aren't like that any more. Luckily, few developers seem to have your attitude, so at this point Linux is generally far more user friendly than Windows.

That said, the issue here in this particular case is not actually a Linux vs Windows thing. If this software were on Windows, there are two possibilities:
1. It would be closed source commercial software, and it would not be released yet because it's still Alpha, so you wouldn't be able to use it at all.
2. If it was open source, it would be in the same rough state as it is on Linux, and it would be even harder to build because on Windows nobody expects anyone to be trying to use stuff before it's all done.

Linux, unless maybe you use Arch, is totally user friendly nowadays . . . but that assumes you're using software that isn't totally bleeding edge unreleased stuff; of course that's going to be a pain. Nobody notices this kind of problem on Windows because they basically don't have the option to try that kind of software in the first place. I strenuously avoid mucking about with command lines or any of that nowadays, but one way I ensure I can keep doing that is by not bothering with anything too new to show up in my distro's repository. If you want to use stuff straight off of GitLab, you're going to need to follow weird instructions--goes with the territory.

To sum up: You don't have to do techie-type stuff to use Linux, and that's as it should be. You do have to do techie-type stuff . . . to do techie-type stuff on Linux, like install alpha software from GitLab.

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Quoting: Linux_Rocks

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: EikeI couldn't get into modern Civ.
Wonder if I should try 1 again (or maybe 2).

To be honest, I was thinking "Civilization . . . 1? Was there really a Civ before 2?"
I played Civ 2 to death, then kind of skipped a couple of versions and play a fair amount of V. But there were definitely things about 2 . . . maybe I should try it again. Or maybe 4; I sort of have the impression that 4 is the last one that's pretty much like 2 only upgraded, with 5 as a clear departure.

I say fuck all that, and just play Alpha Centauri if you don't wanna play Civ II. lol

Alpha Centauri is really great.

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Quoting: EikeI couldn't get into modern Civ.
Wonder if I should try 1 again (or maybe 2).

To be honest, I was thinking "Civilization . . . 1? Was there really a Civ before 2?"
I played Civ 2 to death, then kind of skipped a couple of versions and play a fair amount of V. But there were definitely things about 2 . . . maybe I should try it again. Or maybe 4; I sort of have the impression that 4 is the last one that's pretty much like 2 only upgraded, with 5 as a clear departure.

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