Quoting: noderunnerGame developers are notoriously awful at anti-cheat. The solution should be to architect the game server to perform anti-cheating checks and generally to avoid trusting the client (see VACNET). Instead we have the lazy way, which is installing invasive software to prevent the game client from being tampered with. I don't want native Linux anti-cheat, I especially don't want an invasive Denuvo kernel module. Just let us play single player and local multiplayer in peace.

i dont see why denuvo being avaliable for linux/working on linux would magically make every company adopt it as anti cheat for their offline games

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulvalve did an talk about this topic, you should take a look at it.

Well, I will when they'll develop a server side AI like I described above. Until then, I have no interest in client side rootkits whatsoever. I don't buy the argument that it's the right way to address this problem.

i didnt said that was their solution, i cant remember wich one was, in any case, you should at least take a look at it to see if there is any techinical issue that you didnt tought about before or to call it bullshit knowing what you're talking about

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulaccording to then, they would stop it, if valve reduces their cut to 12%, wich didnt happened

Well, I don't buy the argument of using anti-competitive methods by those who claim they are advancing competition. It's bunk.

like it or not, this strategy fucking works.

and we have exclusives at linux too, the difference is, we make exclusives by the lack of standards.
often you see an program that only works on ubuntu or only works on redhat because its hard to suport all those distros.
so what the distro mantainers do? they join in an effort like w3c and khronos group to create an standard that will allow you to write an program only once and run on all the distros?
pff, nope, they fragment it even more, no incentive to cooperate.
hell, the fact that we have snaps, flatpaks and appimages kinda of proves that.
and the fact that some distros like mint found excuses to not support snaps and went out of their way to make sure you cant install snaps on mint, proves it again.

sure they said it was proprietary or something like that, but guess what? steam is too, and they support it.

the distro mantainers fight each other in what package manager they use, meanwhile more and more developers start to ignoring then and distribute their softwares and games on steam instead.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulby perfect i mean "good enough", hackers will always find an way to break the anti cheat protection, its runing on your machine after all so you are in control.

I meant good enough to make the game enjoyable. If someone "breaks" it in a way that doesn't ruin the game, why should anyone care? AI on the server side can be gradually improved to catch robotic or unnatural behavior of cheaters. That's more than enough for it. But AI needs investment and a lot of work to get right. Making a rootkit on the client side is an easier no brainer and unscrupulous companies obviously choose that. I don't see any excuse for that besides basic greed.

valve did an talk about this topic, you should take a look at it.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulthere is no perfect solution for anti cheat.

That's why you don't need a perfect one. You need one that's good enough. And it should never be a privacy and security horror rootkit running on the client side.

o think you dont understand what i mean.
by perfect i mean "good enough", hackers will always find an way to break the anti cheat protection, its runing on your machine after all so you are in control.
what an anti cheat solution can do is, at best, delay the time that the hackers will take to break the anti cheat mechanism, delay it not forever, but for long enough to find another solution, so as soon as its broken, they implement the new solution, its an endless battle.
the biggest issue is that there is no decent way to do it in an non intrusive manner.

think about that:
what is anti cheat or drm after all? an software that try to stop you from doing whetever you want with the machine, eg: faking inputs etc.
what is free software trying to do? the opposite, atempting to make you have full control of the computer.
there is no way that those 2 things can walk togheter, its impossible to do an good open source drm solution or open source anti cheat solution.
and not all games can run server side only, what about those button mash mini games where the player who presses the button faster wins? its impossible to secure the input against hacking.

we cant expect companies to do something impossible.
if you think there is an silver bullet to solve all those problems at the same time, present this magic solution to the companies, if it was easy they would already have figured it out, what youre demanding is simply impossible.
the anti cheat solutions arent intrusive nowadays because companies want then to, then are because that was the only solution possible.

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Quoting: BielFPsIt's sad how anti cheat solutions are more effective to block legit Linux players instead of actual cheaters. And for anti-piracy protection, I haven't see any successfully case with Denuvo since the Chinese had their first success of crack them.

Reading the article, my thoughts are that it will be similar to EAC situation: It kinda works with Linux, but the developer has to choose if they want to support it, which the answer is no.

80% of the sales of an game used to happen in the first 2 months after its relase.
denuvo can keep an game from being pirated for more time than this.
https://crackwatch.com/ [External Link]

not to mention that the cheating industry move millions if not billions of dollars each year, that is more than the linux gaming industry (aside from android)

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Quoting: ZlopezIn case of anti-cheat, I'm not against using anti-cheat software server-side, but having it on client is actually not a good solution, especially if it prevents you to run the game in a few years or start it if you are not connected to some 3rd party server.

there is no perfect solution for anti cheat.
cloud games can solve part of the problem, but they cant fix the input faking side.
every anti cheat solution will be either useless or invasive by design.

o think the best solution is: let people make an local server if they want or connect to the official servers, if they dont want cheaters in their game, want to play with/against new players, match making etc.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: elmapulepic games "fighting against exclusivity" and monopolization of pc games.

That's a strange one, given Epic are signing exclusive contracts. They are on the wrong side of things.

according to then, they would stop it, if valve reduces their cut to 12%, wich didnt happened

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Quoting: GuestWhat anti-cheat is WoW using? I mean we can play it for years on Linux without problems and there is competetive gaming too in the PvP area.

we cant play in the official servers

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Quoting: PublicNuisanceSo this is where we are in Linux gaming ? Getting in bed with intrusive DRM is met with cheers ? Guess I can't be shocked we're no better than the rest of the PC gaming platform on that regard. I was already more willing to support Itch.io or GOG for their DRM practices and I see this news as strengthening that and pushing me farther away from Steam. It's bad enough they allow games on their store to use Denuvo but to bake it into Steamworks is a worse step not a better one. They have the market and the clout to fight against this nonsense but it just shows they value money above all else which is something that those who say they love Linux should start opening their eyes to.

we have to lose some battles in order to win "the war".

epic games "fighting against exclusivity" and monopolization of pc games.
cdpr/gog fighting against drm.
valve fighting against the windows monopoly

everyone "fighting" in different fronts, helping gog will make steam weaker, helping steam will make gog weaker, we have to pick our poison.

i think we should let the fight against drm with the windows users, while we fight for linux marketshare, we can join they in their fight later on, but we dont have enough people/resources to fight in both fronts at the same time.
run today, live to fight tomorrow.

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