Quoting: minidou

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: minidouI fail to see how glibc devs could be blamed for removing a function deprecated for 17 years (though I can agree a major version bump should have been called for). Do videogame devs need that much nursing ? EAC linux lib is a recent piece of software, how many deprecated dependencies do they use ?

The blame is not really about removing the deprecated feature. Blame is for the failure to restore it after discovering that users for the feature still exist and the removal broke stuff.

They did restore it because of the backlash, but they really shouldn't have, there's no reason for it. This isn't some obscure lib we're talking about but the GNU C library. If a handful of program gets broken it's on them, the function was marked deprecated almost two decades ago. An outstanding majority of program have no issue at all with the removal of this function, why should a niche but maybe high visibility user dictate the direction of glibc ?

Something not discussed here is that the removal of DT_HASH allows a save of about 1% or 16kB of space per Glibc shared object [External Link]. This is an improvement. There clearly is a good reason for finally removing this deprecated function. But we shouldn't profit from this improvement because of some devs bad practice ?

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: GuestThe blame is not really about removing the deprecated feature. Blame is for the failure to restore it after discovering that users for the feature still exist and the removal broke stuff.

Yes, a lot of developers (especially newer, younger ones that lack the experience) argue in favor of always using the very latest everything and always keeping everything updated.
I've seen that time and time again in several teams.

But that's not a position that can be maintained in reality.
You'd require armies just to maintain old stuff.

It's fine to remove a function if you can't see that anyone is using it. An understandable mistake.

This is off topic. The impacted softwares were initialised years after DT_HASH was marked deprecated. In the case of EAC lib, probably a good 15 years later. In every sector of the software industry this would be considered bad practice, but VG softwares get a pass for some reason.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut the moment you realize that there were indeed many still using it, it should clearly be restored (with a deprecation marker, but still).

They did that, almost two decades ago.

And it seems there isn't that many users impacted. I can count the EAC lib and some lib used in shovel night. Compared to the millions of programs using glibc.

I'm also wondering if this opens a hole in EAC. Aka since they only seems to check DT_HASH then I can craft a .so that have a nice DT_HASH for EAC to be happy about and then I create my real stuff in the DT_GNU_HASH section that is what the system really loads instead. Now I have never played around with low level linking like this so I don't know if this is possible, but it sure sounds like it.

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Quoting: landeelglibc compatibility has been a pain for a while.
I have released 2 games on Steam with native Linux ports.
I'm always afraid of doing a dist-upgrade, because it's very likely the compiled binaries won't run on the previous distro version.
It's absurd, but targeting win32 is more stable.
There should be a way to have multiple working glibc versions.

There are, you can also in your code tell a new version of GLIBC that you want the function from the older version X since GLIBC uses versioned symbols and keep the old ones around since they started to do that. It's a very painful process though since one have to do this for every single symbol one want's to use.

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Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: 1xokThis whole criticism from CodeWeavers developers should be taken with a pinch of salt...

... Why?

Because WINE is where their money comes from?
It's not like they're a neutral party in this question...

I see nothing wrong or biased in what they said.

New releases of WINE/Proton breaks games that worked with the older version from time to time so yes they are wrong in that WIN32 is the only stable ABI on Linux since it clearly isn't stable. There is a reason why Steam still have several versions of Proton since 3.7 available to choose from.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: F.UltraNow for games in particular, security is rarely an issue what so ever

Why do you think so? Many games communicate over the internet, and I fear user security is not among the first 26 concerns of many game developers...

My reasoning here is that those games does not communicate randomly over the Internet but almost always only home (usually over https so the remove url cannot be spoofed easily either) and that the communication initiation is always out-going and not in-going (aka the game does not listen to incoming connections) and that the processing of the data on this communication is handled by the game itself and not by some shared library (which means that there are no benefits to fix the libs).

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Quoting: setzer22I'm an Arch user, and have been for quite a long time. But I'm starting to grow increasingly worried about the sustainability of their distro model. Honestly, this obsession with dynamically linking everything and updating as soon as possible is a huge house of cards waiting to fall under its own weight.

Why are we okay with the basic model for Linux dependencies being to have *all* the system's dependencies share the same global namespace, while a bunch of overworked (and often underpaid!) enthusiasts make sure that updates happen in lockstep and nothing breaks. Of course things are going to break randomly during updates! There's not enough people willing to donate their time to QA test all of this.

Keeping all this machinery working sounds like a tremendous amount of work, and for what? So that our things break randomly every now and then? So that we can feel good about "memory reuse" while in practice all software we use is Electron crap that happily spins up a chromium instance per window?

The only seemingly valid argument supporting all of this rube goldberg machinery is that we want system updates to automatically patch our applications when a CVE is detected in a system-wide dependency like glibc. But that's (1) Much less of a concern for desktop Linux, which are rarely open to the wide internet in a way that most common exploits could be achieved, and (2) Sysadmins and anyone deploying software on servers are moving away of this traditional distro model in favor of Docker precisely because distro updates break things and environments are non-reproducible.

Anyway... I won't side with Epic on this because they used a deprecated function long after it was documented as such and that's not good practice, but things that work should keep working after an update, I'm tired of this.

At least now we have Valve carefully curating the system updates on Steam OS, so there's less of an incentive to boot up windows when some game stops launching after an upgrade.

Because the alternative which is how software is distributed on Windows (and how the "new" distribution ways of flatpak/snap/whatever) where the responsibility of keeping the shared libraries up to date for security holes and other bugs are shifted onto the developers of each and every single application that you install of it being done just once for your entire OS by a much larger and more competent team.

And thinking that Linux is somehow less impacted by security holes by "something internet something" is naive, we are just as conencted and impacted by this as the Windows users. Now for games in particular, security is rarely an issue what so ever, but if we take applications instead then holes in shared libraries can be exposed by you opening a file in OpenOffice, VLC, GIMP or whatever, it does not have to be an exploit in port X where some Windows subsystem listens to external connections.

The main issue in this particular case though is the "and updating as soon as possible" part which only happens on rolling update distros like arch that want's to be on the bleeding edge for everything instead of the slow and methodical way of Debian or Red Hat.

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Unity seems to bleed money and it's getting worse with each new quarter while IronSource on the other hand is a profitable company. Now we will have to wait and see what the merger details will be if this is an actual mutual merger or if this is IronSource buying Unity by taking on their debt.

edit: Latest news is that this is no longer a merger but Unity is buying IronSource for $4.4bn in Unity stocks where share holders in IronSource will receive 0.1089 shares in the new company for each 1 share in IronSource that they currently own while Unity share holders will receive 1 share in the new company for each 1 share in Unity that they currently own.

Will be interesting to see who will be CEO and Chairman in the new combined company, my take is still that this is IronSource buying Unity with Unity:s own stock but we'll see.

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Quoting: Salvatos

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Salvatos

Quoting: scaineEveryone who has access to this site... they're all (myself included) so unbelievably privileged, we have no right to voice our opinions on this subject. We lack the context and (hopefully) life experience of being able to contribute to this "debate".

Only people without Internet access can have opinions on abortion or politics?

Ah, is that what I said? Not really, but you're right, it was poorly worded. I was suggesting that this law change will affect the least privileged people. Those with no recourse. People so far from our existence that it's crass to have strong views about "what it must be like" to have this change forced.upon them.

Hopefully that's a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say.

Yes, thank you. I still feel like that's a broad assumption to make about everyone who visits the site, because even lower middle class people could have a very challenging time e.g. taking time off work to travel to another state or country to get the necessary procedures, not to mention the social fallout, especially in states that offer bounties for intel on women who get abortions.

It can get way worse than "social fallout". In Texas there is "Texas Senate Bill 8" that allows any private citizen in Texas to sue anyone who may have helped facilitate an abortion.

And

The National Association of Christian Lawmakers, an antiabortion organization led by Republican state legislators, has begun working with the authors of the Texas abortion ban to explore model legislation that would restrict people from crossing state lines for abortions, said Texas state representative Tom Oliverson (R), the charter chair of the group’s national legislative council.

Now the Biden administration have said that they would fight any such attempts since it would violate the federal interstate commerce rights, and that is probably why they have moved on to instead allow private citizens to make civil suits since that would no longer be the state violating the interstate commerce rights.

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Quoting: denyasis

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: TherinS

Quoting: GBGamesAnd yet the rhetoric keeps getting repeated, and it sounds so innocent and earnestly about freedom when in fact it is often double-speak for driving the opposite outcome.

In a country that claims to value freedom as a whole, it makes no sense to say "And we'll turn it to the states to let the people decide if YOU get to have the same freedoms." We, in fact, tried that, and it turned out to be a terrible idea.

Unfortunately, that is the POINT of free states allowing its citizens to vote how they want thier state run, within the confines of some basic rules set in place at a Federal level. No one is being forced to remain in thier state (there's 48 easy to travel to) or being prevented from traveling to another state.

If one city decides jaywalking is legal and another decides its punishable by jail time, then don't jaywalk in the illegal areas. Nothing is keeping you from walking all you want, but jaywalking is viewed differently in the two cities. If the population of one city wants to make jaywalking legal, then vote into office the officials who will make that legal.

This decision is, in SPIRIT, no different than the example of jaywalking. The people can now vote for/against it as they wish and majority rules.

So hypothetically, what about repealing the second amendment and let each state decide on guns, gun control and even total gun ban?

Up until the most recent Supreme Court Decision, gun control was largely left up to local jurisdictions. Even down to the city level. Some cities banned handguns. Others required registration of firearms or set rules of the discharge if guns. States still set age restrictions, prohibitions, carry requirements, and licensing. What's legal in one city is not in another with regards to guns. If you have a license to carry in your state, it does not mean another state will honor it. If you are allowed to carry in your state without a license, you'll still need one to carry in a state that has a license requirement.

...Not confusing at all....

Over the last 20+ years, a lot of restrictions have been removed, often by courts or legislatures, but it's still very much locally controlled. The most recent decision combined with the ideological makeup of the court does throw into question how many of those regulations will still exist in the future, but for now, each state can regulate guns independently to some extent.

Sorry for the double post.

To some extent yes, but I'm talking total control. AKA allow all the blue states (and some more) to 100% outlaw guns and enforce extreme border checks to make sure that no gun from "allow states" could flow through. Just curious how the "states rights" advocates would stand behind that.

But it's quite moot anyway since we all know that once the GOP gets majority control and a new president the whole issue of states rights will be dropped like a hot potato and abortions will be outlawed on a federal level. That have been their stated goal since long ago and all the talk about "states rights" right now is only empty semantics.

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Quoting: TherinS

Quoting: GBGamesAnd yet the rhetoric keeps getting repeated, and it sounds so innocent and earnestly about freedom when in fact it is often double-speak for driving the opposite outcome.

In a country that claims to value freedom as a whole, it makes no sense to say "And we'll turn it to the states to let the people decide if YOU get to have the same freedoms." We, in fact, tried that, and it turned out to be a terrible idea.

Unfortunately, that is the POINT of free states allowing its citizens to vote how they want thier state run, within the confines of some basic rules set in place at a Federal level. No one is being forced to remain in thier state (there's 48 easy to travel to) or being prevented from traveling to another state.

If one city decides jaywalking is legal and another decides its punishable by jail time, then don't jaywalk in the illegal areas. Nothing is keeping you from walking all you want, but jaywalking is viewed differently in the two cities. If the population of one city wants to make jaywalking legal, then vote into office the officials who will make that legal.

This decision is, in SPIRIT, no different than the example of jaywalking. The people can now vote for/against it as they wish and majority rules.

So hypothetically, what about repealing the second amendment and let each state decide on guns, gun control and even total gun ban?

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Looks a bit like The Slaughter: Act One, I hope the dev will make Act Two some day now (6 years in the making).

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