Quoting: slaapliedjeI knid of think of the story of the rabbit and the turtle. Canonical is the rabbit in this, trying to hurry up and get to the end without all the planning and development, so they can get something out quicker, but is a mess underneath. Where Redhat is slow and methodical and ends up winning in the end.

Wow, more casual Ubuntu-bashing, eh? Upstart replaced the SystemV init system in 2006 and was used by various distributions (including Redhat, ffs) for about 7 or 8 years. It was instrumental in pushing the start up times of Linux from the 30sec+ norm in those days to the sub-10s we have now. Iteratively, it was surpassed by SystemD and that's fine. That's good, that's what makes Linux better, over time. Upstart wasn't "a mess underneath", nor was Mir, nor Unity, nor Snap, nor many of the other truly exceptional, innovative things Canonical have contributed over the decades they've been around.

Occasionally they did indeed put out duds. That's also fine. As long as we're all running Linux, we're all in this together.

Although from the comments on this thread, you'd hardly fucking think it. :sad:

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Quoting: elmapulspeaking of hatsune miku, she IS creative commons, the character was made to be used by anyone, so they decided that change her licence to creative commmons was the logical thing to do:
https://creativecommons.org/2012/12/14/hatsune-miku-joins-the-cc-community/ [External Link]
unfortunatelly its non comercial, you need an special licence to do anything comercial with her (wich is kind of a good thing, it may be impossible to make an game with such a quality without some kind of exclusivity of the use of the characters, not to mention they need to licence the song so composers get paid anyway)

considering that miku is creative commons, pairing her with linux make a lot of sense, it was an "crime" an "heresy" that this didnt happen before, but this is finally being fixed.

Well, steady now. It's Deck-ready, but still uses Proton. And it's got Denuvo anti-tamper, so it's a straight no for me. Looks like fun though, and I do enjoy a rhythm game. Might pick it up if they ever remove the anti-tamper.

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Quoting: mr-victory

Quoting: scaineOn Endeavour, I type the password after BIOS and sit patiently for about 30 seconds while... something... happens.

Most probably GRUB does the deceyption and GRUB lacks acceleration, (I don't know what exactly it lacks) increasing boot time.

Yep. I didn't want to go into the detail, but that's exactly what's happening. On Ubuntu, they quite rightly don't LUKS /boot, so you get a nice plymouth-based decrypt prompt and it's fast - really fast. But on Endeavour they also LUKS the /boot partition and a) it's slow and b) looks like shit because it's pre-plymouth. Stupid solution. More secure? Sure. But goddam, I'm not an MI5 agent. I just want to secure my /home - I wouldn't even bother with LUKS at all if they still had /home encryption... I forget what that was called, but it was found to be vulnerable, so LUKS it is.

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyFalse premise on two levels. First, if I perceive Snaps as something that will mess with the workability of my computer, I'm going to care even if I'm not technical. I'm not sure about that, but I do wonder.

It's not a false premise if you just want to use your computer, which was your example. And I agree - my example is my wife who has no idea if she's on a snap, a flatpak or deb. She just wants to use her PC. Snaps are irrelevant to her.

Quoting: Purple Library GuySecond, if I have a political interest in openness, open source, and decentralization of power, I might care about the way Ubuntu does Snaps. And in fact I do have such a political interest.

Again, sure, but that's not what you said and what I responded to. You were being "just a computer user". And I agree with you - if you care about this stuff, that changes everything.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: scaineI agree with all of that... but it's not really relevant here, is it? His point was that if you care, you can't turn off snaps. But as a computer user (as you put it), why would you care? Just use the computer. That's what Ubuntu is good at - getting out of the way and just working.

E.g. because your primary daily driver, the browser, starts slower?

Sure, yeah. But a) only the very first time after boot and b) it's already fixed according to an earlier comment. These things get blown out of proportion, I think. Right now, for example, I'm using a LUKS-encrypted drive I ticked a box for in my Endeavour OS install. On Pop and Ubuntu, that means I type a password after the BIOS and then again to log into my desktop. On Endeavour, I type the password after BIOS and sit patiently for about 30 seconds while... something... happens. It's annoying, but... it's once a day at the most. It's a shitty design decision, but it's hardly a deal breaker.

Narrator: This was a deal-breaker. Scaine is moving back to Pop_OS at some point over the coming summer.

Okay, so yes, I'll be moving back to Pop_OS, and yes the shitty boot sequence is a contributing factor. But it's not the only reason. These things do get blown out of proportion a fair bit. I've really enjoyed my time on Endeavour.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: ShabbyX

Quoting: Lycurgus87And learn to use your system, because probably (about 99%) you are the problem, not your machine, nor the software.

Oh no no no, never say that. Take any device (a computer, a door, a hose, whatever), and if most users have trouble using it, that's definitely a design flaw of the device.

Here, see this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI [External Link]

At work we've got, on a single walk through a single floor, doors that
* are just opened manually,
* must be opened manually, but only after you show your entrance card to some device,
* open automatically after you show your entrance card to some device, and must not be moved by the handle they've got, because otherwise, most probably, world explodes.

Please, if you constructed a door so stupidly that it must not be moved by its handle, AT LEAST DON'T GIVE IT A FU**ING HANDLE!

At our work, we do have quite a few doors with pull-handles that are push. At least the opposite isn't true, I suppose! But it does make me wonder what people are thinking when they put doors up. This isn't brain surgery you know? If you need to push a door to open it, why does it feature a pull handle?? Infuriating.

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyI really hate having to explain this all over again all the damn time. Ahem: No.
I am a computer user. I use Linux because it is a better operating system to use. And for reasons related to the politics of open source, true. But I want to use Linux, like it's an operating system and helps me get things done that I do on computers, like playing games or doing word processing or using whatever random bits of software I feel like loading up and using for whatever comes up.
If instead I have to be fiddling with the computer to make it do that stuff, Linux is failing to be a decent usable operating system. It is instead being some sort of pedagogical tool for computer developers. I am not a developer or a programmer or a server admin or anything like that and I'm not interested in having a computer designed to teach me how to fiddle with the OS via its design flaws.

I agree with all of that... but it's not really relevant here, is it? His point was that if you care, you can't turn off snaps. But as a computer user (as you put it), why would you care? Just use the computer. That's what Ubuntu is good at - getting out of the way and just working.

So either you're not technical and don't care, or you are technical and can tinker a bit to remove snaps. Sure, it could be easier, but that's not in Canonical's interests here, so I doubt it will happen.

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Quoting: F.UltraWhile I basically agree with your post as such this last part does not compute at all. Just like Canonical, Red Hat got a lot of irrational hate for pulse and systemd to the point that it now have become a conspiracy theory of it's own where evil Red Hat in cahoots with eviler IBM are working behind the scenes for total world domination of Linux systems by replacing sysvinit with systemd...

Ah! I wonder if that passed me by because I'm not a Fedora/Redhat fan. I knew there was a lot of hate for Pulse/SystemD initially, but a) it died out (eventually) and b) I wondered if it was just Poettering-hate. Maybe it was Redhat-hate instead. Seems that folk don't like the companies behind Linux for some reason.

Quoting: F.UltraBut it still proves your point, many times, if not close to frickin always, when some one does something new or different in Linux it will always bring out the Knights of NIH on forums.

The Knights of NIH! I love that! :grin:

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Quoting: dr_jekyllOtherwise we can of course agree to disagree, as it is also a pointless discussion, because no one from KDE will change their way because of these comments.

Haha - nope! Still good fun to chat about it though! :grin:

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: SoltrummanAs a Ubuntu user since 06.06 snaps are probably the biggest misstep up there with MIR and we all know how well that NiH-project turned out.

I've covered before how ridiculous calling things "NIH" is. It's literally how Linux evolves and becomes better. Weird that Canonical gets hate for that, but no-one bats an eyelid when Redhat decide to replace the entire sound system, or indeed, the entire fucking init system.

Hang on a minute. I'm pretty sure there was, in fact, a lot of hate over the "init system" thing.
And I mean, any new sound thing on Linux gets an automatic pass as everyone hopes against hope that it will be better than the last one.
So, no, I'm not seeing the contrast.

Well, sure, initially. But when was the last time you heard anyone griping about it though? But people still, FUCKING STILL (sorry) talk about Mir. As you can tell, it really gets my goat! :grin:

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