Quoting: Purple Library GuyWeren't you arguing that the point was that they should be able to exercise free speech while working in the project and so, in this example, act like a misogynist?

I never said that anyone should be able to freely take the piss on other team members or users, that would be pretty damn stupid.

But as long as they keep their misogynist acting outside of the project and interactions with its users, and as long as it doesn't become extreme with calls to violence or stuff like that, there is no problem.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIf they're restraining themselves, that's back to the code of conduct you don't like.

The code is fine, for the most part. Just too much room for abuse, especially the "in private" part, which is by now confirmed to mean "in private among the community" as I suspected all along.

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Quoting: devland

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut whatever happens that is not (either publicly or privately) between workers/team members but between a worker and other, unrelated people (or no people at all, just someone voicing opinions), should have no consequences beyond affecting inter-personal relations at work if it becomes known.

If a member of a community has, for example, publicly voiced homophobic opinions, that will reflect poorly on the entire community.

Yes, and that is nonsensical collective punishment that I do not support.
"Someone of you did something I do not agree with, unrelated to the project, so now I hate all of you, and the project, especially if that person's head doesn't roll".
If that screeching is the best people can do, I can't wait for the next meteorite...

Plus, it is very much "guilty until proven innocent".
To begin with, what is or isn't homophobic is very much subjective. I can remember a pretty harmless soap bottle causing quite a stir...
And even if it was something really serious: Maybe that person was drunk, or maybe just in a really bad space, or, or, or... Those are not excuses, but there are a lot of reasons to give second chances and not just pre-emptively exclude everyone who might disagree on something.

Quoting: devlandAlso, LGBT members of the community would find it hard, if not impossible, to work with him afterwards.

Maybe, and that would be a reason to talk about it and see what can be done - and if nothing can be done, then termination (of the contract! geez...) might be the result. If that member is set in their ways, that will be for the best.

But you don't see people calling out for "Okay, that's not alright, let's talk about it". You instead see the screeching "Off with their heads!" Twitter mob - and even if heads do roll, that project will forever be tainted in the eyes of those, never to be forgiven.

I remember the case of a guy who was working on a game on KS. It became known that that guy was following some groups on Deviantart (or sth like that, doesn't matter). Among those a group producing some Nazi memorabilia art (anything from iron crosses to big boobed nazi anime to tanks) - and a foot fetish group, which I find way more disturbing -, he also engaged in some forum RPs playing a nazi.
You know how this story ends, right? I don't even need to finish it.

You can support that exclusive mindset - or try to be more reasonable, which thankfully the Godot devs have chosen to be, it seems.

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Quoting: KimyrielleWould I want to have a misogynist in a project I am leading? Absolutely NOT!!! Not even if their code was the best thing since sliced bread. I haul their sorry butt out of the door, period. And I find this the most natural thing on Earth, really.

If that misogynist in your project behaves just fine towards everyone in the project and the users and does a good job - what does it matter what views he holds privately?
You don't want to convince him of anything other than your power to get him offed, you don't want to understand why he thinks what he thinks, how he came to the wrong conclusions. You want to get someone fired for simply not agreeing with you on topics that are for one reason or another dear to you - and you think it to be the most natural thing on Earth.
That's really quite sad, and it is behaviour like that which drives more and more people to the extreme sides of the spectrum while not changing anyone's mind - quite the opposite, actually, it only reinforces their views and theories.

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The lead developer himself clarified some things [External Link] - which all sound fine to me.
I asked if they should maybe add a tl;dr of that to the statement itself, which he said "might be a good idea".

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: TheSHEEEPGodwin's law confirmed.
I had hoped people would ignore that AH namedrop (really, don't do that, please).

Study that law again kid. I did not compare anyone to Hitler here. And as long as I abide to GoL posting rules, I can write whatever I want... funny how freedom of speech is such a volatile concept!

Dude, chill.
I'm on your side, but even if you didn't compare anyone, someone will interpret it that way and so here we go.
Just don't namedrop the guy, it never works out well and always leads to derailments like this one right here. Not worth the hassle, really. Enough other people to namedrop available ;)

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Godwin's law confirmed.
I had hoped people would ignore that AH namedrop (really, don't do that, please).

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Quoting: devland

Quoting: psyminIf someone is mean to someone else in a realm that isn't related to linux, gaming or godot, that shouldn't have any impact on their ability to contribute.

It does have an impact.

If you start calling someone names, regardless if you do it offline or online on another platform, then you can't possibly expect that the other person will be willing to continue to work with you.

That's not the point being made.
Obviously, you shouldn't keep a worker around that insults other workers.

But whatever happens that is not (either publicly or privately) between workers/team members but between a worker and other, unrelated people (or no people at all, just someone voicing opinions), should have no consequences beyond affecting inter-personal relations at work if it becomes known. And if those relations are then harmed so much that the person in question has to leave is a different question, to be decided case-by-case, not by some general checkmarked ruleset of forbidden opinions.
Stuff like that is called call-out/cancel culture and there is a reason that even people as "left" as Obama and T. Noah are not on board with it.

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Spoiler, click me

Quoting: Eike[Switching to German to avoid missunderstandings]

Mir hat jemand auf einer großen Website "Verpiss dich, Eike!" geschrieben. Da derjenige sich aus meiner Sicht öfter gegenüber verschiedenen Leuten denebenbenommen hatte, habe ich Anzeige erstattet und Strafantrag gestellt. Er hatte das anonym unter einer IP-Adresse getan, die für die Strafverfolgung auf seine Person zurückgeführt wurde. Die genauen juristischen Fachbegriffe muss ich dir schuldig bleiben, ich glaube, "das Verfahren wurde gegen Zahlung eines Bußgelds eingestellt" oder so ähnlich. Fakt ist, er musste 1000€ (Zahl der Tagessätze weiß ich nicht mehr) an irgendeinen Jagdverein bezahlen.

Hätte nicht gedacht, dass es diese dünnhäutigen "Anzeige ist raus!"-Personen wirklich gibt. Dachte, das wär nur Parodie auf YouTube...
Hab' ich doch wieder mal was gelernt.

Wenn das Verfahren eingestellt wurde, heißt das nur, dass da jemand lieber zahlt als sich auf ein Verfahren einzulassen (was seinerseits Geld und Zeit kostet). Keine Ahnung, was der Kerl sonst noch so geäußert hat (wohl genug, um lieber zu zahlen?), aber ich habe keinerlei Zweifel, dass ein "verpiss dich" allein auf irgend ner Seite unter keinem Umstand ausreichend beleidigend ist, um tatsächlich zu einer Verurteilung zu führen.

Quoting: EikePS: Isn't it irconic that you didn't want to believe there's a country forbiding insults by law - just to find out you're living in one... ;)

Well, I'd gladly take anyone to court whose special feelings couldn't take some opposing opinion and felt insulted.
PS: I'm not living in Germany.

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Quoting: EikeYes, and I actually did that once for a person who... well, let's say he insisted on it.
He was charged 1000€ (*) for writing what translates well to "Piss off, Eike!" on the net.

You sued someone for telling you to piss off somewhere on the net? I'm not buying it.
There is way more context to this than you are letting on (the "insisting on it" could make something serious enough).

I mean, seriously, I'm German, too and read a lot of comments on various sites from Spiegel to Facebook (oh boy, FB comments, that's some sludge right there...) , etc. and if anyone who said something that harmless about someone else (piss off isn't even an insult, it's telling someone to leave) somewhere on the net was sued/suable, the German courts would be blocked for eternity and the law probably abolished.

Quoting: KimyrielleThat's utter nonsense. There is a certain group of toxic people that resent that their toxic statements are no longer left standing without receiving dissent for them.

Dissent isn't the problem, it's what makes life interesting. The spice in the soup.
The problem is that some people are calling for outright banning, blocking, locking up, etc. of anything not stricly adhering to their own opinions and views. We've had this here, too, with topics being locked once the admins saw people were not agreeing with their own views and so any further discussion was locked under the guise of "preventing trolling" (aka "people posting stuff I don't agree with and rubbing it in my face") or something like that.
I don't doubt this topic will have the same potential outcome...

Not that admins don't have the right to do pretty much whatever on their own sites. They sure do, and they are making their standpoint clear by doing it.
And same goes for the Godot devs. If they want to exclude people who openly disagree with them about certain topics, they can do that. I don't care either way, while I do develop some stuff (modules) for Godot, I have no intention of contributing to the core engine. For different reasons than this topic here, though I have to agree it doesn't help, even if I'm not fitting any of their "bad person" checkmarks as far as I can see.

However, it should be clear to everyone that what this does is create a divide, and how that is going to benefit any project, I don't know.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: slapinReally you have the right to insult people - yes, you will get reaction you deserve, but that right is protected.

In my country, it is actually forbidden by law to insult people. (I'd recommend to double-check this for yours...) So in the generality you're stating it, that's wrong.

I doubt very much that such a thing exists in any country.

What are you gonna do, fine people who call someone else an a**hole or idiot? That's impossible to enforce.
You are likely confusing just an insult with actual slander, which can indeed be punishable by law in many countries.

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