Quoting: bird_or_cage

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: ixnari

Quoting: GuestIt is always funny to read the random comments.

The team at Google Stadia mentioned that privacy will be “at the user's control".

Oh [External Link], I'm [External Link] sure [External Link].

so what? they will know that i'm a bad player? who cares.
when it comes to voice patterns, video patterns or knowing who i'm friend with, i can see how this could be used for evil purposes.

but spying on me while i play? why is that an issue? how can this be used for "evil" purposes?

Like I said before, because you're feeding proprietary AIs, training them manipulating people.
Would you think watching human problem solving, or even human responses to enotional dilemmas might be useful for that?

It is just crazy when one entity can examine most of your life, they know where you are (maps), what are you speaking about with which people (messages, allo, gmail), what do you think is important (calendar, keep, drive, docs), what are you interested in (search, youtube) and now also - what and how do you play. Surely there are some things I forgot to mention.

Are you comfortable with someone knowing you better that your wife, mother and physiologist together and keeping your full profile in "mind" at all times? I am definitely not.
I do use some google services, an Android phone, and maybe I will play one or two games with Stadia, but I am definitely keeping most data outside such companies.
If they want my data, I am open to a commercial proposal (which I will most likely decline, it`s just weird that they expect everyone to give them everything for free... on the other side, people expect an email service to be free these days, so I guess they are even).

You're right. Nothing even could be free with Google!

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Quoting: elmapul

Quoting: ixnari

Quoting: GuestIt is always funny to read the random comments.

The team at Google Stadia mentioned that privacy will be “at the user's control".

Oh [External Link], I'm [External Link] sure [External Link].

so what? they will know that i'm a bad player? who cares.
when it comes to voice patterns, video patterns or knowing who i'm friend with, i can see how this could be used for evil purposes.

but spying on me while i play? why is that an issue? how can this be used for "evil" purposes?

Like I said before, because you're feeding proprietary AIs, training them manipulating people.
Would you think watching human problem solving, or even human responses to enotional dilemmas might be useful for that?

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: ixnari

Quoting: GuestIt is always funny to read the random comments.

The team at Google Stadia mentioned that privacy will be “at the user's control".

Oh [External Link], I'm [External Link] sure [External Link].

It is good that you are so wary about privacy. But let's face it, which secrets can Google steal when you play Assassin's Creed Odyssey?

And that link with regard to the "gmail data" is not entirely applicable to Stadia:

"The account you use for Stadia is built on top of your Google account, but of course you'll be able to have an online persona that is distinct and different from your Google persona. We're committed to protecting and respecting users' privacy every step of the way. "

There are several things you can do with spied data.
The spying out of private data for the purpose of personalized advertising is usually the only thing that is thought of. For this reason one can usually only set which data may not be used for it.
Companies working on artificial intelligence such as Google, Facebook, Amazon, IBM, etc. are even more interested in data to feed their algorithms. For that they do bot need names. These AIs calculate the behavior of road users, voters, patients, or whatever their proprietors like. There is no public control over it and no one can prevent in any way that their own data is used for this purpose.

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I cannot estimate the respective costs of Valve and Epic.
But when a publisher accuses a shop of greed, opportunism is certainly at play.
If a profit oriented shop accuses another of greed, it's an underbidding competition, and it's also hypocritical in this case, because Epic, unlike Valve, also markets player data.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: EikeIf I will, I'll think about hiding the Linux sale by the way. I figure it might be actually counterproductive to show that Linux users buy Windows only games.

But the point is: Proton games are not Windows only games anymore!

Well, in order not to have to argue about that...

I figure it might be actually counterproductive to show that Linux users buy games not ported to Linux (if you want to have games ported to Linux).

I'd love to see Linux in a position to automatically get native versions of all games, but I realized it's not. And when I ask myselve what kind of gaming do I really want, then answer is open platform gaming. I really could live with a Vulkan/Proton platform fully supporting Windows/Linux/Mac/Whatever. You could say I see Proton games as liberated games. ;-)

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Purple Library GuyThe production of native Linux games could totally plummet in that scenario. For Steamplay to be a Good Thing it has to result in a big market share gain. And we don't actually know that's going to happen. I think we have to roll those dice anyway because the stagnation we have right now isn't viable in the medium term, but the concerns about Steamplay potentially damaging native game production are pretty valid.

Thanks for these two posts. I cited the second one to say: Yes, this is a) what I'm fearing and b) what, in my eyes, seems to be actually happening. Even many GoL readers, probably more involved than the average Linux gamer, seem to jump on Proton like the starved, and we're not seeing a decent raise on the Steam survey side. I already had the impression of a decline in interesting Linux releases before Proton, but IMHO, Proton... it doesn't seem to stop this to say the least.

I was afraid of what would be happening when Proton was announced, and I see my fears coming true.

... to an extend that I might use it myself some day.

If I will, I'll think about hiding the Linux sale by the way. I figure it might be actually counterproductive to show that Linux users buy Windows only games.

But the point is: Proton games are not Windows only games anymore!

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: GuestI've said it before and I will say it again, "no tux no bucks" does more harm than good and this shows why

Not sure I see the conflict. Steamplay is for making migration to Linux easier. No Tux no Bux is current Linux users rewarding developers who support Linux. Both those things have a place; indeed I'd say they're complementary.

I like the idea to bring those two together! In my opinion it can only work, when current Linux users try to reward the efforts of developers creating native Linux games, before buying Proton games. In that case however, there is not much left from an absolute nTnb mindset. Or did you have in mind that Proton games are only for new Linux users?

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Linuxwarper

Quoting: GuestWe have "AAA" games on Linux right now, so no more proof is needed. That's why you should ask for more, not that merely asking is always going to work but sometimes it can.

There are AAA games that are profitable on Linux (Feral). But in general they seem not to be. Having many AAA games doesn't prove they are profitable. It means they came to Linux for a reason other than it being profitable, goodwill or company seeing potential in a new market. Metro Last Light for example was ported because of Steam Machines. That port is now crap compared to running it through Proton. Now why is Metro Exodus not on Linux? Why isn't Doom 2016, that had internal linux build, not released? Why is..??

Let me prove my point with something else. Out of all games from E3 2019, coming to Linux, only two of them are triple A. One of them is Wastelands 3, the other is Borderlands Lilith. If Linux is profitable and worth doing a port for, why was it only two games ?

I'll say it again, we have no basis to make demands. We will when our marketshare grows big enough. Proton will help with that. There is a opportunity though. With games being made for Stadia, and Paradox devs have confirmed that Stadia is similar to Linux, that means devs will get more experience with Linux code. There is also Vulkan. This means adapting the stadia version to Linux should cost much less than porting a game with DX11 to Linux.

Uh no, the AAA games we have on Linux were not for charity or good will, we have proof that the work done releasing for and supporting Linux was compensated for.

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Linuxwarper

Quoting: GuestNumbers of Linux gamers or subscribers to whatever website increasing has no effect on Linux games if the demand for Linux games isn't also increasing.

I wasn't arguing that it does. But it clearly shows that Valve's involvement with Linux is working to bring users to the platform. And it will only go up when they further polished Proton and Linux desktop and make anticheat work with Proton. Proton is still not complete. But even in it's incomplete state it has persuaded alot people to stay on/switch to Linux. Infact, I might have changed back to Windows if it wasn't for Proton.

If there is one thing I agree with you on, it is that you should ask for Linux port. But you should direct it at developers supporting Stadia and indie devs. Indie devs because their game is easier to port because of scale of the game. Stadia developers because Vulkan is used and Paradox has said there are also other aspects that Stadia shares with Linux. Vulkan and Linux similarity reduces cost for the port. Asking or demanding a port from devs that won't be using Vulkan is futile. They can use the money instead to make a dlc and get more returns from Windows.

You should direct asking for Linux support to all devs that have games that you'd like to support.

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: GuestSo far I'm not seeing an increased in the demand for Linux games, though, when looking at hard evidence and the actual numbers.

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Am I right to assume the release date you're using is the first Steam release? Then I figure the curve looks similar to this for a long time, as we often do not see first day Linux releases...

Correct, and correct, you will always have lower release counts in the current month and no counts future months where there are no releases, or do you have a time machine I can borrow? :3

Quoting: Natedawg

Quoting: GuestGamers who switch to Linux will demand Linux games

I believe this is a good argument! However, the flip side of it is getting them here in the first place so that they'll be in the position to demand the games. If we don't get them here in the first place then the increased demand will never come. If a person's primary use of their computer is gaming then, pre-Steam Play, Linux looks like the worst possible option for them both catalog-wise and performance-wise. They'll never switch.

Steam Play is what got people like Linus at Linus Tech Tips to take a second look at Linux as a viable gaming platform after having brushed it off on several occasions over the last few years. So, because of Steam Play we now have had several Tech "YouTubers" doing marketing for us, which in turn gets users, which in turn gets sales, which translates as demand for Linux.

Post Steam Play, while Linux still doesn't live up to the catalog of Windows games, it at least looks like a far better option than macOS because the catalog of playable AAA games is probably 2 or 3 times larger than macOS, maybe more. So, if the user is looking for an alternative to Windows, there is something they can go to where their gaming compromise isn't as huge of a hump to get over.

I suppose my ultimate argument can actually be presented as a question. If you had to choose, do you prefer more people switching to Linux, or more games that have native ports, because I don't believe we can have both at this point. :\ We have to pick one or the other. I choose the former.

I was saying that they were saying that, I'm not saying that myself, lol. X3

We need more gamers demanding and supporting Linux games, and to get there Proton may help, but the argument is if Proton is allowing gamers to just buy Windows games and they start doing that a lot, it would help Windows games, and if the demand for Linux games decreases because of it, that also would hurt Linux games.

We need Linux gamers both increasing in numbers and demanding Linux games. Spreading the message to demand games that are fully supported on Linux helps, so No Tux No Bux helps to increase that demand, but we need to see that demand increase, and so far I'm not too impressed by the numbers which seem to be at best holding steady if not down a little bit.

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Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: aldyIf they see that their games are selling well on Linux then they'll consider porting games.

They're already buying, why invest money?

You will know as soon as your game is not Proton compatible and therefore will not sell to Linux users.

So you're with me it's no incentive to port...
(And the incentive to do larger changes, like using Vulkan instead of DirectX, wouldn't be bigger.)

Yes, I think right now it is no incentive to port to Linux natively, with a big BUT.
I think Proton made a big number of games availlable to play on Linux. It made and will still go on to make large portions of peoples libraries availlable to play on Linux. I think the percentage of new released games playable on Linux is higher than ever. Although the percentage of native releases might/will decrease, and although we will never know if the percentage of native games would have risen significantly without Proton (which I strongly doubt), I really do think Proton is the only hope for a rise in Linux user percentage. This rise should make developers at least look for Proton compatibility, which is achieved by using Vulkan and non Windows exclusive content. That would make native ports much easier, and that might rise the number of native ports and again Linux users in the long run.
It's a hope, yes, but I know of no other mechanism to reach that goal.

You show your own faulty logic by saying "that might rise the number of native ports and again Linux users in the long run." What will increase the number of Linux titles is an increased demand for Linux titles. If the demand for Linux support doesn't increase, there's no reason why developers would give more Linux support. Gamers have to come over to Linux and demand Linux support in order for us to have more Linux support. GOG, itch.io, etc need to grow with more Linux support, too.

Demand for Linux games won't grow if Linux gamers are demanding Windows games by buying Windows games. That will just mean more Windows games. Will some of those gamers demand better and demand Linux games instead and show that by buying Linux games? Yes. And that's what we need more of. But if they buy more and more Windows games, that means more and more financial support for developers who decided to not give a shit about Linux.

I think whats faulty is to think that you'll find lots of Windows gamers who are willing to install Linux, and happily doing without large parts of their game libraries.
If buying Windows games means demanding Windows games that are also Linux games, then that's ok with me! If that (and other resons) helps making devs use Vulkan instead of DXxx, even better!

Windows games aren't Linux games, they're Windows games only supported on Windows. If they were Linux games, you'd see a little SteamOS icon on Steam, and they might be available on GOG and itch.io as well.

Linux support is key, and Linux games come with Linux support. I'll never support games without support for the OS I use, that would be crazy. The only way to get normal support, be able to count on day-1 releases working properly, be able to review the game and report bugs etc is when the developer supports running it on our OS.

To make "good" or "bad" differences between proprietary binaries is a bit too puristic for my taste. I simply don't see that difference. If it's running on my system, it's ok to me category wise. I would even play DOS games, or emulated console games if they run without issues.
I see differences when it's about buying software that counts as anti-Linux, anti-consumer-interests (although I don't like the word consumer) or anti-privacy.
I also strongly believe that Proton is one key to more Linux users, and more Linux users is the only way to get more market leverage (and I will still not care if it'll be more native games or better Proton compatibility #Vulkan).
Even if I'm wrong, and Proton won't help, I'm absolutely sure about one thing: Binary purism will neither give us more Linux users nor more support by developers.
Also, if the numbers should grow in the future, you should not expect too many of the new users (most probably coming from Windows) to subscribe to your opinion.

Edit: typo

No clue what you're talking about. Has nothing to do with "binary purity" which is a thing you started talking about, not me.

When I donate to a developer for releasing a game on Linux, I'm paying for the support they give and the work it took bringing it to Linux. You know, what normal gamers do? I'll never do that for a game that doesn't give me those things, that would be craycray, I'm not a 2nd class gamer.

Ah! So if it"s all about support, then whitelisted Proton games are ok for you? Good to have it out of the way then!

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: NeverthelessI think developers tend to be quite pragmatic thinkers. They might not easily understand why someone would demand a native version when there is a Proton version that runs without issues. They may even think it's esoteric or amusing.

If they're genuinely pragmatic thinkers would it matter to them whether they understood why someone was paying money for something, just so long as they understood under what conditions the money would be paid?

I guess so! But someone said everything counts in large amounts, and they have lots of other people to analyze. They might even understand them better..

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Linuxwarper

Quoting: GuestNumbers of Linux gamers or subscribers to whatever website increasing has no effect on Linux games if the demand for Linux games isn't also increasing.

I wasn't arguing that it does. But it clearly shows that Valve's involvement with Linux is working to bring users to the platform. And it will only go up when they further polished Proton and Linux desktop and make anticheat work with Proton. Proton is still not complete. But even in it's incomplete state it has persuaded alot people to stay on/switch to Linux. Infact, I might have changed back to Windows if it wasn't for Proton.

If there is one thing I agree with you on, it is that you should ask for Linux port. But you should direct it at developers supporting Stadia and indie devs. Indie devs because their game is easier to port because of scale of the game. Stadia developers because Vulkan is used and Paradox has said there are also other aspects that Stadia shares with Linux. Vulkan and Linux similarity reduces cost for the port. Asking or demanding a port from devs that won't be using Vulkan is futile. They can use the money instead to make a dlc and get more returns from Windows.

You should direct asking for Linux support to all devs that have games that you'd like to support.

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: GuestSo far I'm not seeing an increased in the demand for Linux games, though, when looking at hard evidence and the actual numbers.

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Am I right to assume the release date you're using is the first Steam release? Then I figure the curve looks similar to this for a long time, as we often do not see first day Linux releases...

Correct, and correct, you will always have lower release counts in the current month and no counts future months where there are no releases, or do you have a time machine I can borrow? :3

Quoting: Natedawg

Quoting: GuestGamers who switch to Linux will demand Linux games

I believe this is a good argument! However, the flip side of it is getting them here in the first place so that they'll be in the position to demand the games. If we don't get them here in the first place then the increased demand will never come. If a person's primary use of their computer is gaming then, pre-Steam Play, Linux looks like the worst possible option for them both catalog-wise and performance-wise. They'll never switch.

Steam Play is what got people like Linus at Linus Tech Tips to take a second look at Linux as a viable gaming platform after having brushed it off on several occasions over the last few years. So, because of Steam Play we now have had several Tech "YouTubers" doing marketing for us, which in turn gets users, which in turn gets sales, which translates as demand for Linux.

Post Steam Play, while Linux still doesn't live up to the catalog of Windows games, it at least looks like a far better option than macOS because the catalog of playable AAA games is probably 2 or 3 times larger than macOS, maybe more. So, if the user is looking for an alternative to Windows, there is something they can go to where their gaming compromise isn't as huge of a hump to get over.

I suppose my ultimate argument can actually be presented as a question. If you had to choose, do you prefer more people switching to Linux, or more games that have native ports, because I don't believe we can have both at this point. :\ We have to pick one or the other. I choose the former.

I was saying that they were saying that, I'm not saying that myself, lol. X3

We need more gamers demanding and supporting Linux games, and to get there Proton may help, but the argument is if Proton is allowing gamers to just buy Windows games and they start doing that a lot, it would help Windows games, and if the demand for Linux games decreases because of it, that also would hurt Linux games.

We need Linux gamers both increasing in numbers and demanding Linux games. Spreading the message to demand games that are fully supported on Linux helps, so No Tux No Bux helps to increase that demand, but we need to see that demand increase, and so far I'm not too impressed by the numbers which seem to be at best holding steady if not down a little bit.

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Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: aldyIf they see that their games are selling well on Linux then they'll consider porting games.

They're already buying, why invest money?

You will know as soon as your game is not Proton compatible and therefore will not sell to Linux users.

So you're with me it's no incentive to port...
(And the incentive to do larger changes, like using Vulkan instead of DirectX, wouldn't be bigger.)

Yes, I think right now it is no incentive to port to Linux natively, with a big BUT.
I think Proton made a big number of games availlable to play on Linux. It made and will still go on to make large portions of peoples libraries availlable to play on Linux. I think the percentage of new released games playable on Linux is higher than ever. Although the percentage of native releases might/will decrease, and although we will never know if the percentage of native games would have risen significantly without Proton (which I strongly doubt), I really do think Proton is the only hope for a rise in Linux user percentage. This rise should make developers at least look for Proton compatibility, which is achieved by using Vulkan and non Windows exclusive content. That would make native ports much easier, and that might rise the number of native ports and again Linux users in the long run.
It's a hope, yes, but I know of no other mechanism to reach that goal.

You show your own faulty logic by saying "that might rise the number of native ports and again Linux users in the long run." What will increase the number of Linux titles is an increased demand for Linux titles. If the demand for Linux support doesn't increase, there's no reason why developers would give more Linux support. Gamers have to come over to Linux and demand Linux support in order for us to have more Linux support. GOG, itch.io, etc need to grow with more Linux support, too.

Demand for Linux games won't grow if Linux gamers are demanding Windows games by buying Windows games. That will just mean more Windows games. Will some of those gamers demand better and demand Linux games instead and show that by buying Linux games? Yes. And that's what we need more of. But if they buy more and more Windows games, that means more and more financial support for developers who decided to not give a shit about Linux.

I think whats faulty is to think that you'll find lots of Windows gamers who are willing to install Linux, and happily doing without large parts of their game libraries.
If buying Windows games means demanding Windows games that are also Linux games, then that's ok with me! If that (and other resons) helps making devs use Vulkan instead of DXxx, even better!

Windows games aren't Linux games, they're Windows games only supported on Windows. If they were Linux games, you'd see a little SteamOS icon on Steam, and they might be available on GOG and itch.io as well.

Linux support is key, and Linux games come with Linux support. I'll never support games without support for the OS I use, that would be crazy. The only way to get normal support, be able to count on day-1 releases working properly, be able to review the game and report bugs etc is when the developer supports running it on our OS.

To make "good" or "bad" differences between proprietary binaries is a bit too puristic for my taste. I simply don't see that difference. If it's running on my system, it's ok to me category wise. I would even play DOS games, or emulated console games if they run without issues.
I see differences when it's about buying software that counts as anti-Linux, anti-consumer-interests (although I don't like the word consumer) or anti-privacy.
I also strongly believe that Proton is one key to more Linux users, and more Linux users is the only way to get more market leverage (and I will still not care if it'll be more native games or better Proton compatibility #Vulkan).
Even if I'm wrong, and Proton won't help, I'm absolutely sure about one thing: Binary purism will neither give us more Linux users nor more support by developers.
Also, if the numbers should grow in the future, you should not expect too many of the new users (most probably coming from Windows) to subscribe to your opinion.

Edit: typo

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