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PayPalA new topic to generate some discussion today is an ask the community section on why you think Steam itself is DRM?
First of all my opinion on the matter. I truly believe that Steam itself is not DRM any more than having to login to a website is which is what I like to call a "login wall" rather than having a plain download link for your games.
I am not alone in this argument either, it seems famed Linux porter Ryan Icculus Gordon also agrees:
Steamworks is not DRM, and does not require it, but way too many games do: "if !SteamAPI_Init() { exit(1); }"
— Ryan C. Gordon (@icculus) May 28, 2014
(Although, fwiw: if you have Steam running, even at the login screen with no net connection, SteamAPI_Init() will still succeed.)
Ryan C. Gordon (@icculus) May 28, 2014
If a developer doesn't do the above, Steam is simply a way to download games and keep them up to date and those games can be taken outside of Steam itself and ran without Steam. It's a developers choice on what they put in their games and that includes Steam's DRM options and that simple check pointed out by Ryan above.
For the people who do think it is DRM why do you feel that way? I would imagine it is because you need the Steam client itself, but once downloaded as mentioned above you can just move the games outside of Steam anyway, so how is that different than having to fire up a browser -> go to your favourite store -> login -> go to your library -> download -> then install/move it where you want? How is it that so different exactly that the Steam client itself suddenly becomes DRM?
I've never encountered anything as a result of using the Steam client that made me think it's getting in the way, but maybe that's just me.
It certainly would be good if developers could put up a notice to state their games run outside of Steam, that would help somewhat and there is nothing stopping them doing that.
So, I open up the floor to you readers to tell me why exactly you think the Steam client is DRM even with all of the above noted in your minds.
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This was discussed at length before, but here are some key points again:
1. Steam has an official backup tool in the client. That tool creates some image on the disk. In order to restore that image one has to access the service. That's already DRM. DRM-free implies that once you purchased something, you can install and use it without any reliance on the service and any kind of 3rd parties who control what you do. That's not the same as simply authenticating the user during the purchase. We are talking about using the product after the purchase.
2. Some games distributed through Steam can be manually backed up, and de-facto #1 would work then without the service. That's correct, however I view the fact that Steam doesn't officially support that in their backup tool as DRM, and #2 as an unofficial exception to it.
3. Ryan is partially wrong about Steamworks. While it can be optional, for many games it's not (if they use network libraries from there for example). That's not DRM however, it's another problem, namely lock-in. Lock-in is bad on its own and developers should avoid using features which bind them to one distributor.
4. Avoiding Steam can result from all of the above. Even though some games on Steam can be de-facto DRM-free, general Valve's attitude towards this issue is not good. It's worse than the attitude of Humble Bundle which also offers mixed content. HB clearly marks games as DRM-free or not, and as well has an official backup option (simple tarball / package download). Supporting distributors which have a better DRM-free attitude makes sense if you want to vote with your wallet. That's the reason I use primarily GOG, less so HB and don't use Steam at all.
1. Steam has an official backup tool in the client. That tool creates some image on the disk. In order to restore that image one has to access the service. That's already DRM. DRM-free implies that once you purchased something, you can install and use it without any reliance on the service and any kind of 3rd parties who control what you do. That's not the same as simply authenticating the user during the purchase. We are talking about using the product after the purchase.
2. Some games distributed through Steam can be manually backed up, and de-facto #1 would work then without the service. That's correct, however I view the fact that Steam doesn't officially support that in their backup tool as DRM, and #2 as an unofficial exception to it.
3. Ryan is partially wrong about Steamworks. While it can be optional, for many games it's not (if they use network libraries from there for example). That's not DRM however, it's another problem, namely lock-in. Lock-in is bad on its own and developers should avoid using features which bind them to one distributor.
4. Avoiding Steam can result from all of the above. Even though some games on Steam can be de-facto DRM-free, general Valve's attitude towards this issue is not good. It's worse than the attitude of Humble Bundle which also offers mixed content. HB clearly marks games as DRM-free or not, and as well has an official backup option (simple tarball / package download). Supporting distributors which have a better DRM-free attitude makes sense if you want to vote with your wallet. That's the reason I use primarily GOG, less so HB and don't use Steam at all.
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When I tested Half-Life 2 for DRM I was able to install it on a 2nd machine using a simple copy and paste operation ftom a DVD. Steam DIDN'T need to be running or online for the installation procedure. As far as the consequences of banning I don't think that bars you from access to download and/or install your games any more. They changed that functionality a while ago IIRC. However does games that are DTM do NOT need to authenticate at ANY point otherwise they wouldn't be DRM free. Others point to the EULAs and Dteam TOS but AFAIK even GOG has similar language.
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Quoting: HeimdallGo to the store, get the cd/dvd, bring it home and install it as many times as you like. Go to GOG.co, get the executable, install it as many times as you like. No difference. If the store closes down, you have the same problem as if GOG goes down, same thing if Steam goes down.
Except that with Steam, if they don't offer a game anymore, you lose access to your game. Someone cracks your password and gets you banned or steals your account? Lost access to your games, including the ones you have on your computer. You get banned, you now have hundreds of dollars in games now gone up in smoke. With GOG and physicals, you have control of the install once you buy the game and download it. You own the game. With Steam, you may as well be just renting it.
With Steam, you are forced to download their client, create an account and remain logged in, download the game, leave the client open and run the game. If you want to install it on other computers, you are forced to download their client again and have it running under your account in order to play. That is an added burden that you do not have with GOG/Physical installs (unless the physicals demand Steam/Origin/Uplay).
GOG distributes the self extracting installer that is independent of any client that you are not obligated to log in every time to install. You likewise don't have to go to the store you bought your game from every time you want to install it.
If a game is DRM free, don't buy it from Steam. I don't like monopolies and so many of the bigger developers are forcing their player base to use them (Steam) exclusively. It is like having to fill up your car's gas at only Chevron Gas stations because your car's manufacturer only wants you to use their service. Kind of like paying the mob off to do business.
With gog you have the additional install step but you still need an account to download it and a browser!
If you have downloaded it with steam, you can just go into the folder and start it without steam running. Want it on another pc? Just copy paste it. The game is yours, no client needed, that was my point. And you didn't get apparently, because for you steam is evil DRM stuff. But it is just a download client with additional functionality. And even if steam would go down for good, well they said they try to provide the games without the client. And even if that wouldn't work i still have a copy from my humble acc or a DVD. So I don't care about that :>
PS.: I really dislike Uplay and Origin and I don't use them.
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killx_den: See my explanation above why Steam is not just a "download client" and why Steam can be opposed even if some games can be manually backed up.
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Quoting: killxdenWith gog you have the additional install step but you still need an account to download it and a browser!
If you have downloaded it with steam, you can just go into the folder and start it without steam running. Want it on another pc? Just copy paste it. The game is yours, no client needed, that was my point. And you didn't get apparently, because for you steam is evil DRM stuff. But it is just a download client with additional functionality. And even if steam would go down for good, well they said they try to provide the games without the client. And even if that wouldn't work i still have a copy from my humble acc or a DVD. So I don't care about that :>
PS.: I really dislike Uplay and Origin and I don't use them.
How DID you get steam on your computer??? You would have to have this horrid thing called "a browser," installed by 99% of operating systems and/or installed a game from a disc you had to go to the store to get.
Secondly, try starting most games on steam without first starting it and tell me if the game doesn't start steam first or fail to run if steam is not allowed to open.
As to your claim that they would provide games without the client should they go down, if they were to go down, there would not be a prior notice. One day you will open up your steam client and you cannot connect. There is no obligation for them to give you your games should they go out of business and should they even provide the download services, how many people will try and download their games? You will not get access due to server crashes.
As to your last point, you still can't access your games since steam is down.
You don't have this problem with GOG, because the game is yours.
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You don't lose access to your games when banned on Steam, they disable new purchases and lock you out of a small subset of multiplayer games using VAC. Games can be backed up and the client can be used offline, even if their servers go down forever you only need the ClientRegistry.blob to maintain it indefinitely. As clarified above, Steamworks does not operate as DRM and you can run those games without logging into the service. Games can be installed on multiple computers and single-player games can be run simultaneously using offline-mode, there's only an issue with multiplayer games that require online connectivity. They provide Family Sharing so you can share your collection.
The client still ties you into their service for distribution, but compared to other DRM it's one of the least intrusive. No one likes DRM, but what few drawbacks there are, it makes up for in advantages.
It's more convenient than downloading games manually and has done a better job of maintaining my collection than I could've ever done, especially with the endless patches that PC thrives on. When Steam finally dies, it would've already earned its worth in my eyes and with how well their business is doing, it'll likely be a very long time before that happens.
Steam adds provides value as a service, instead of detracting from it.
The client still ties you into their service for distribution, but compared to other DRM it's one of the least intrusive. No one likes DRM, but what few drawbacks there are, it makes up for in advantages.
It's more convenient than downloading games manually and has done a better job of maintaining my collection than I could've ever done, especially with the endless patches that PC thrives on. When Steam finally dies, it would've already earned its worth in my eyes and with how well their business is doing, it'll likely be a very long time before that happens.
Steam adds provides value as a service, instead of detracting from it.
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I think that as long as a game engine is proprietary, DRM or not doesn't change a great deal.
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Quoting: AnonymousYou don't lose access to your games when banned on Steam, they disable new purchases and lock you out of a small subset of multiplayer games using VAC.That is partially correct. They "lock" your account for most offences now, before you could get banned over something as simple as paypal screwing up (and yes, you'd lose access to all your games even in that eventuality). Now you just get "locked". But they still can, and do, ban people. And the ones that are still lose access to their entire collection.
Rather interesting how it would be outright illegal (in most countries) for a store to deny a consumer a purchase based on just about any arbitrary attribute. But a digital store doing the same because, well, they want to, is totally fine. People that have been banned from steam must really be horrible human beings if their rights aren't covered by law. Then again, we're just licensees. I'm still waiting for the day when all "buy"-buttons are replaced with "acquire license"-buttons across the web.
Quoting: AnonymousWhen Steam finally dies, it would've already earned its worth in my eyes and with how well their business is doing, it'll likely be a very long time before that happens.You are assuming a status quo. Don't do that or you will be disappointed. Nokia was the reigning heavy weight mobile maker in the world, it got crushed almost overnight. Disruptive technology has a tendency to upset the balance of things we take for granted, the same will happen to steam. Will this disruptive technology appear in a year? Ten years? Hedge your bets, if you rely upon a third party service then make sure you're prepared for when it inevitably does go away.
Quoting: AnonymousSteam adds provides value as a service, instead of detracting from it.It does. A lot of value. Its managing of my rights does not add anything of value, at all.
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Quoting: CloudwalkerQuoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!
" have to be online" AHHHAHAHA you are so dumb wtf of course you have to be online in order to download games.. How else you gonna get games downloaded to your computer (Note I said downloaded NOT install by cd)
God some people are dumb these days
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Quoting: omer666I think that as long as a game engine is proprietary, DRM or not doesn't change a great deal.
This.
Also, Steam's complete lack of consumer rights due to operating out of the USA isn't great either.
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