Quoting: psycho_driverI'm pretty sure it's Unity underneath the hood.

I agree. And then we're back to square one, as far as I am concerned. It doesn't have to look like this.

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Quoting: psycho_driverIt's a husband/wife team who have worked on some of the older heavy hitter MMOs.

Ah - it's that game, alright. Quite easy to feel a good deal of empathy for them of course.

But still... Do they make the engine from scratch too?

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Looks remarkably like a MMO from 2000. Could this be a mobile port?

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Hooh - that was veeeery classic jrpg style gameplay indeed. Fun to see this on PC too - I very much associate these kind of RPGs with Playstation and console gaming.

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Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut the fact that there still are actual RPGs being released shows that the more narrow definition of RPG is as valid today as it was 25 years ago.

It actually doesn't show anything at all, other than that the original formula still is within the definition of the genre. As it obviously should be.

But we are practically down to semantics now, ("do a subgenre of a genre belong to that genre or is it a genre of its own"?) and that is a clear indicator that this lemon is now squeezed dry. I'm out. Thanks for your time. :)

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Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: BeamboomAt the same time; things change. Everything, including language, evolves over time. And so do genres.

Quite wrong. What horror movie from 100 years ago would today no longer count as an horror movie? Maybe not scary any more, but still a horror movie.

Of course. And the oldschool RPGs are still RPGs (come on...).
But genres do change. They typically expand. Look at music. How the rock genre has expanded over the years. Or even the newer genres, like techno. If we took a techno track of today and showed that to a techno fan twenty years ago, he'd probably define it as something else amongst the genres then. It doesn't mean the old music no longer belong to the genre, but one would problably want to separate them to a stack of their own, add "oldschool" in front, or "retro".

There's no reason to claim it's anything different when it comes to game genres, quite the contrary. "RPG" (or, as the true purists call them, "crpg") is a term that today covers both realtime and turn-based gameplay, various perspectives, team based, etc.
And we now in this dicussion call the roots of computer RPGs "oldschool RPGs". That's a rational thing to do, because the genre since then has evolved.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPSame is true for game genres. How are Wolfenstein 3D and the latest Call Of Duty not both FPS games?

I don't even know how you came to this conclusion, so I'll skip this part of your post.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIf you want to call one an RPG and the other an Action-RPG, fine. But just calling everything an RPG and being done with it shows an incredibly lazy mind.

Action rpg is a subgenre of RPG, a genre that also holds turn-based RPGs. Just like there's plenty subgenres to rock.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPNope, genres do not change as time goes by. There is not a single example of this.

A ridiculously bold statment.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThey are defined around the time they pop up and then remain.
And if something does not fit a genre, it is either a new genre or a mix.

... Or a subgenre. Like rock, who has then evolved into a multitude of subgenres, all truly belonging to the main label "rock". Even the first rock'n'roll tracks from back in the days.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPJust because you play a driver* and your car has stats, does not make it an RPG.

Play AS a driver. Your role is a driver, not a car. You're not a car in those games, you navigate the vehicle as a driver.

But obviously it's not a RPG.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPMidlife crisis confirmed.
Sorry, this is so absurd that I can't think of anything else...

I knew you were going to like that. :)

But my point is, the RPG genre has evolved into being more about the characters and story, and less about the strategies and dice rolls.

Look at the latest X-com games. They are categorised as strategy, not RPG - even though they could just as well have been called "oldschool RPGs with a modern coat of paint": Turn based, team based, stat based, dice based, restricted/linear play fields, quests, grid based movements, world map, NPCs, it's got absolutely everything. But it's categorised under the label "strategy" today. And that's how I would describe those RPGs from back then too, to a new gamer today.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIf you really think "this is not an RPG to me, but maybe to someone else", then we should stop, as I'm not usually in the mood for Hippie nonsense. I prefer cold facts over kindergarden nice words.

And I prefer that my opponents in a discussion at least TRY to understand what I'm saying, instead of constructing claims I never have expressed and make fun of those.

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In essence we agree with a lot of this, as far as I understand. But this dialogue is interesting. :)

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThe "oldschool" definition is indeed the correct one. Being old doesn't make it wrong, and people using a wrong definition nowadays quite often doesn't make that one right.

At the same time; things change. Everything, including language, evolves over time. And so do genres.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThe whole thing comes from PnP and that's where the purest definition should remain.

Historically that is correct, but there are plenty examples of things emerging from their roots and by nature are quite different today. It's just so long ago that people now associate it differently. So in reality, it's all to do with perspective on time. For you the roots are clear, near and should be respected. But as years go by and computing power increase those roots are further and further afar from where computer RPGs are.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIt is as if you'd call every movie an action movie just because a person in it does an action.
It is ridiculous and should make it obvious something is wrong with your definition.

The interesting thing with this quote is that it seems that suddenly the tables are turned. It's YOU who's insisted on this game being a RPG based on your definitions, not me. I don't want to include this game into the framework of what a RPG is. But you, with your definitions, insist that it is so.

It is in fact me who say to you what you now say to me in your last sentence there. Quite interesting.

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: BeamboomStill, when you see a RPG, you know it is a RPG. And this game here, is not a rpg.

Honestly, this makes you come off as incredibly narrow-minded.

I can live with that. But yes, I do define a RPG as a game where you play a character as one of the requirements. I must admit that.

Furthermore, if we are to talk about the oldschool RPGs, I must admit (much to your pleasure now, I suspect) that I find many of the oldschool RPGs to in fact today more belong to the strategy bag than the rpg bag.
Times change! Walking down a predefined linear corridor with characters popping up like pawns on a board, taking turns to do their strategic moves... This, to me, smells more like turn-based strategy today. It is how they used to be back in the days (I'm soon 50 years old btw), yes indeed, but today such game mechanics are more welcome (warning, completely subjective perspective now) FOR ME in a strategy game than in a RPG. I get less attached to my characters in a game where they are simply just tools to achieve a goal - win a board game. With RPGs I want to be immersed in a world. Roleplay, yes BE a character. In a strategy game I want to consider statistics, strategies and probability. i want to win. In a RPG I want to experience and evolve a character.

(I still obviously define them as RPG, just to state the obvious. But meant as a perspective on how genres evolve and change over time).

Quoting: TheSHEEEPA game that fulfills all the conditions I posted earlier should not be an RPG just because the visual representation of travel & combat in the game is that of the ship instead of its captain?

You make a very rational point here, from a technical point of view it makes perfect sense. It's easy to agree.

But here's where I would claim that this is precisely why we can't just have a list of mechanical features to decide a genre. Games today, simply put, have everything in them. Absolutely everything. So if we at all want to keep genres as a way to identify and separate styles of games and gameplay, we need to do more than just follow technical specifications.

Unless, of course, we want to operate with "this is a 40%RPG, 20%FPS and 30% strategy, 10% platformer" game. But we don't. :)

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Quoting: TheSHEEEPWould you not drive yourself, but rather the driving would be mostly done for you

Now you're narrowing RPG down to be of really really oldschool dice throw type things. Most modern RPGs do combine stats and player ability. And that's exactly what a rally game does too :)

And the deeper into the "action RPG" realm we go, the more player skill focused we get. Still, I'd say they are still indeed RPGs! Why? Cause you just know it when you see it.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPCustomization is irrelevant if it does not affect actual gameplay other than by visuals. The fact that you can put wigs on does not define or change a genre.

Oh there's PLENTY of gameplay-related tweaks in racing games! Tyres, brakes, engines, wheels, gear box, steering wheels, all adding some to the stats of the car.

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: BeamboomA genre is more than the technical feature list, imo.

What else would it be?
There's a list of "conditions" that make an RPG, the more of these are fulfilled, the more the scale points to it being an RPG.

And my point with comparing the technicalities with a wildly different genre (rally racing) was to point out that there ARE more than just sheer game mechanics that differs a genre.

Most games today that contains a character and a story - heck, most genres whatsoever! - has adopted some mechanics that used to be the hallmark of a RPG. We see it everywhere.

Still, when you see a RPG, you know it is a RPG. And this game here, is not a rpg.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWhat exactly that list is, is probably debatable, but it would certainly include the ratio of player skill vs character stats and the fact that you need to play a role (or even multiple ones).

It's still not that easy :) Cause in a rally game you play the role of a rally driver, don't you agree? :D Or a FPS - you play the role of a soldier or whatever.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIf you can or can not immerse yourself in the role, just because you have trouble identifying as a ship (you wouldn't be the only one, me too ;) ) is irrelevant to the definition as it is purely subjective.

LOL!

Quoting: TheSHEEEPEverything else leads to bollocks like people claiming only fantasy games can be RPGs (yes, I witnessed such a "notion" ).

Yeah that's bollocks. But I would draw one definite line on whether or not you're an actual character, and not an item.

:)

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Quoting: TheSHEEEPRPG does NOT mean you play a person, which would be a terribly narrow-minded and misleading definition.
If that was the criteria, Doom would be an RPG.

If that was the ONLY criteria, yes. But I do think that a Role Playing Game at least should be about playing a role, in addition to the technical features expected (many of which you do list). Yes, skill trees, exploration, stats, buffs, XP, all that mechanical stuff that makes a good RPG.

Character, relationship, choices, quests, storyline, unique items and outfits, all that stuff... That's really what RPG is about in my book. In a RPG I expect to play a character, a ship should be a mount and not the other way around. But of course, what's the difference between controlling a team and a ship with a crew? One could argue.

Could a rally game be called a RPG? well, it has customisation, stats and items that affect performance, there can be both "quests" and a storyline in them too. So, RPG? Nah.

A genre is more than the technical feature list, imo.

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But how can this be called a RPG? We don't even have a friggin' character to play, only a boat? What is it about this game that qualifies as "RPG"? Because it contains exploration? I mean... Come on?

Sure, the developer can market it however they like, but do you think this is a RPG, Liam?

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