Quoting: Guest

Quoting: gradyvuckovic

Quoting: CreakAs a developer, I understand the urge to own and control your own code but, to make a poor analogy, developing your own game editor to make your game is a bit like developing your own Photoshop to create your textures.

No no, that is an EXCELLENT analogy.

I say that as someone who once well victim to it myself.

These days for modern 3D games you need things like inverse kinematics for positioning hands on weapons, tools for generating navigation meshes from level layouts, lightmap bakers and global illumination solutions, soft body simulation for character hair or cloth to move in the wind, ability to stream in level content in separate threads, and of course if you were writing an engine from scratch today you would be using Vulkan..

.. the idea of making a game engine for a game in 2020 is madness unless all you're making is a simple 2D game. Even then I can't help but ask 'Why?'. What exactly do you think your 2D engine is going to do that some other game engine that has been worked on by more people for longer won't do?

You've given a very narrow view of what constitutes a game, though I'm sure that wasn't your intent. If you want to make a game that looks and plays like, say, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, then no you probably wouldn't create an engine from scratch.

But let's take the example of Star Swarm (I'll let you look that up). Particularly at the time, and I daresay it's still true, other engines couldn't handle what it was doing. Not without lobbing stupidly massive computing power at the problem. And therein lies the crux: requiring obscene computing power reduces potential customers, and also makes development an utter pain. Tailoring your own code base to the desired game type has performance, sometimes stability, and development benefits in many (not all) situations.

It's a balancing act of course. If an existing game engine does all you need, use it. If not, can it be modified to do what you need, and what effort will that require. Is it complete overkill, will it limit potential customers and sales, or will it provide more.

No Man's Sky. Existing engines couldn't handle the procedural generation requirements, as in literally weren't written to handle the data precision needed. The developers had to write their own engine.

Generic game engines are great for many developers, but if you overlay the use cases in a sort of Gaussian distribution, there's still extreme ends where a pre-existing game engine simply isn't suitable. That's because not all games are the same (thank goodness), and not all developers have the same level of resources available to them.

And I've ignored something else that goes into making a game: the reasons for making it. Particularly for indie developers, there are programming language reasons (a game is a great way to hone one's skills), personal satisfaction, of just plain freedom to play around entirely unconstrained by someone else's whimsy. Graphics aren't everything, after all.

If I may add just my two cents on top of this...

If there were not some people out there that took on the challenge of making new game engines, then we wouldn't have the likes of Godot, Unity, Unreal, Game Maker, Cryengine, etc, etc. Furthermore, if *everyone* falls into the belief that it's not worth making a game engine, how many future engines with even better features or design methodologies may we miss out on?

The great many game developers out there may be best suited to make their game in a pre-existing engine. For those that are excited about going the extra (thousand) mile(s) and building something literally from the first bit onwards, it's those dedicated souls that keep the industry growing, give the others options, and allows everyone to build something new!

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As cool as this news is, my take away is more an interest in what's happening with MacOS development?!

I've been tinkering with getting a (used) Mac recently so that when I make some of my Game Jam games, I can test and release them on Mac... but if Apple is going to have me jumping through hoops just to get a program released on their system, I'm wondering if I should even bother investing.

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Quoting: LunielleWhat's the use of programs like this if you're using a game engine which already has a level editor built-in, such as, Godot?

I may still some things to learn about Godot, but, the way I see if, sure, you can build the map in Godot itself, but then it becomes built into the game... where, if you build the map outside of the engine, you can load those maps in outside of Godot's engine structure, making it easier to add more and more maps post release.

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Loved the original. I hope they add some good stuff to the already enjoyable formula of the original!

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Quoting: Salvatos

Quoting: ObsidianBlkOnce "released", honestly, I do not feel software should be "patched" beyond stability and security, otherwise, I feel, companies can (and do) break their own promises.

(...)

I mean, honestly, when we used to buy software, there was never... NEVER any risk that it would suddenly stop working on the systems it was written to work for. Now these games can just be snatched away from us on the whim of the company that makes it... effectively stealing our products from us.

Well see, effectively this is what they’re doing. Your client will still be yours and playable on the systems it was designed for, but you won’t be able to connect to their matchmaking servers because your version won’t match theirs. And so, ironically, it’s precisely because they won’t be patching your OS’s version anymore that you won’t be able to connect.

Quoting: ObsidianBlk... and, yes, WINE does, in fact, give these lazy, pathetic companies an excuse to pull back on a promise. It's not WINE's fault, but, none-the-less, it is true.

Do you seriously think they would have kept supporting Linux if not for the existence of a potential workaround? They don’t care either way, their decision is made, they just suggest it to alleviate the frustration.

First, breaking connection to their server is still, effectively, the same. They are renegging on how they presented and put forth the product to their customers at the time those customers bought the software. Given that the servers themselves are not defunct (rendering the software unavailable to all), then they still have effectively lied to their customer base. The fact that current law doesn't see this as a problem does not mean this is not a problem.

Secondly, these developers released a Linux (and Mac) client. To do so, they should have (and should be EXPECTED TO HAVE) done their research. They should KNOW the relative user bases for all supported platforms, the limitations of those platforms based on the tech available to them, and stick with their decisions. To then try to excuse their pull out by stating the user base means this company is either REALLY stupid for not doing their due diligence (and question what else they could have skimmed over and be f'ing up long term) or they think WE'RE really stupid (in which case, f' them).

As for whether they would have continued to support linux (and/or Mac) regardless of WINE... can you prove they wouldn't have? You might be right, but unless you know for a fact WINE had absolutely no sway at all in their decision, then my argument is still valid. At the very least I can see someone saying... "hey, they can still play using that WINE thing, so if anyone tries anything legally we can say they can still play it through that, so... it's not like we REALLY took it away."

Also... why wouldn't WINE be part of any sort of decision as such? Steam is basically making it a core advertising strategy on the Linux side of their store, so if it's visible to us, the consumer, it's definitely visible to the developers and publishers even contemplating our platform, so why wouldn't a company (whether they "really" had to or not) use that to their perceived advantage. Again, I'm not knocking WINE or any associated project. It's not really their fault if and when this does happen, but to pretend there aren't those that WILL use it as such is sticking your head in the damn sand and allowing companies a pass.

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Quoting: lectrode

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quote...of the active total and when "viable workarounds exist" with Wine being mentioned.

[...]

"Wine is not harmful to Linux gaming"

Have we learned our lesson yet?

The issue is not the existence of a translation layer. The issue is lack of market share. They specifically said that Mac and Linux users comprised "0.3%" of their total player base (that's likely all platforms, not just PC) - not enough to merit the costs behind supporting those platforms.

The developers of Wine/Proton/Dxvk and other translation layers are actively giving people more reason to switch to Linux from windows. You're blaming the very technologies that provide a bridge for more people to start using Linux.

Yes, WINE is giving people more reason to switch (sort of), and, yes, we shouldn't blame them for their work. That said, you can't brush away the fact that these bridges are also enabling companies to simply pull support for platforms they once promised they'd support.

It's a completely different story if a gamer were using WINE to run Witcher 3, or Assassins Creed, or some other such game that never promised any sort of Linux support to being with, but when you have a developer/publisher that originally promised a platform was going to be directly supported, then pull that support because the "users compromise only 0.3% of the total player base" means they're lazy. Not only that, but they f&^%ing suck at a core responsibility of a developer/publisher releasing a product, which would be RESEARCH into the platform they're releasing to. These companies should have been WELL AWARE of the relative player base between platforms BEFORE promising to support them in the first place. There is NO EXCUSE for these companies to pull platform support. And it should be illegal...

... and, yes, WINE does, in fact, give these lazy, pathetic companies an excuse to pull back on a promise. It's not WINE's fault, but, none-the-less, it is true.

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I look forward to that point in time where laws catch up to this practice and deem such things illegal. Once "released", honestly, I do not feel software should be "patched" beyond stability and security, otherwise, I feel, companies can (and do) break their own promises.

If the package says "Windows", "Mac", "Linux", then you take two of three of those away, then you now have effectively created misleading advertising based on material available at the point of purchase. As far as I have ever seen, there has never been (in "released" software) any warning about "Platform availability subject to change"

I mean, honestly, when we used to buy software, there was never... NEVER any risk that it would suddenly stop working on the systems it was written to work for. Now these games can just be snatched away from us on the whim of the company that makes it... effectively stealing our products from us. Refunds are NOT OK as an answer to this. What if someone doesn't WANT a refund? They just want to play the damn game they bought (and for many, bought YEARS ago).

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Quoting: fagnerlnHERE WE GO AGAIN...

We don't need the government controlling even more our lives, the parents should moderate what their children are using.

You know, if you're talking about parents moderating whether their kids are playing a mature game, sure! However, let's look at a game like Fifa, which has a HUGE number of MTX... I just looked it up... all of the game that I saw were rated 'Everyone' (US - ESRB). Why would parents assume they have to monitor and/or moderate their child's use of a game that a recognized ratings board deemed appropriate for... EVERYONE?! Your statement also assumes parents are even aware of the issues going on with Lootboxes and other aggressive MTX strategies. Most aren't. So when they see a game is rated for Everyone, they're going to assume that their little Jane or Johnny is fine.

What makes this rating rather damning is, on a very technical level (the kind of technical level that gives the finger to the spirit of a law and bowls people over with the letter of the law instead), lootboxes and other MTX strategies are not gambling, which leaves the loophole open for games that should be for all ages (like, for kids as much as anyone else) to have predatory gambling (like) transactions designed purely to con gamers (especially kids and others susceptible to gambling-like behaviors) into spending money... all while mom and dad are none the wiser until they suddenly see their child racked up a bill of over $1000 in a game with a rating that suggests it's a perfectly innocent game.

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Quoting: ZeroPointEnergy

Quoting: ObsidianBlkWhy shouldn't my 20 year old disks count? I have several dozen optical disks, and, as said, I have yet to see a single one as unreadable and decades.

Also, let's assume for a moment we really have a physical storage medium that hardly has any wear. I don't know, maybe some holographic wireless storage that can't corrupt and has no contacts that can corrode.

Would anyone argue, that just because the physical product you bought doesn't get destroyed with time you should not have the right to sell it?

I think the issue we are discussing here is one of ownership. I can't understand why people are so willing to play along and just completely accept that things you buy and are by all means presented as if you buy them are not your property.

And sure, this will cause some headache for the game industry, but in the end they will adapt and hopefully not in the bad way in that they try again with such tricks to prevent us from owning the products they sell us.

Also, coming back to physical copies. They don't just deteriorate and are gone. Some of those products even gain in value over time. If you have even a semi old collection of games, it will not be hard to find at least one product people will pay vastly more for than you actually payed originally. You don't get that with digital copies, and that is a pretty good compensation for the fact that it doesn't deteriorates. Still, it should be something we own if we payed for this product.

I very much agree with you!
In fact, my original post said very similar things as yours. I had say that (while I strongly doubt it would ever really happen) I hoped physical distribution would come back... and that just lead a few (including myself) into a debate over the merits of optical disc storage vs hard drive storage. :)

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Quoting: sub

Quoting: ObsidianBlk

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: ObsidianBlkI get this... and I'm not saying I don't have digital games myself, but still... I have CDs I bought in the early 90s that I can still read data off of. How many hard drives can you say the same for?

Consider yourself lucky, but don't think it's a reliable method of storage. Optical discs deteriorate with time, and are a lot more error prone than hard drives which in contrast are built to last for many years.

I'm not sure how you treat your optical media, but all I do is keep them in their cases, on a shelf, and they all still work for me. In fact, I don't think there's a single CD/DVD I've attempted to use in recent years that failed to read. No media is 100% fool proof... especially if treated roughly... but, yeah, I do not see how you think optical media is worse than hard drives. I've rarely heard of a drive lasting much longer than a decade (and, that's actually a pretty solid amount of time).

Doesn't matter if your discs all still work.
Shmerl is right.
CDs and DVDs printed detoriate and should never be used as backup media.

In case of printed CDs/DVDs it's the reflection layer that detoriates.
For writable discs it's even more problematic due to the dye layer.

This is called "Disc rot".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot

Why shouldn't my 20 year old disks count? I have several dozen optical disks, and, as said, I have yet to see a single one as unreadable and decades. I see the wiki article supplied by Shmerl, and I acknowledge it, but in it's own description... "The causes include oxidation of the reflective layer, physical scuffing and abrasion of disc, reactions with contaminants, ultra-violet light damage, and de-bonding of the adhesive used to adhere the layers of the disc together" ... so, basically normal wear and tear. That reflective layer isn't exposed to oxygen until it's outer layer is damaged, and that shouldn't happen if the disk is kept safe. Sure... shiz happens... and (to quote a quote from an article I'll supply shortly), "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everything drops to zero.", Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club... but, again, my collection has still readable disks over 20 years old. Not a single one of them has ever rotted on me (again, I just jewel case them, so no special protections). That's a LOT of evidence for me that while Disc Rot exists, it's not like suddenly, tomorrow, BAM! scores upon scores of my discs will suddenly all have Disc Rot, so long as I don't start leaving them out of there cases, or using them like coasters.

That said, look up the average life span of a hard drive...
https://www.prosofteng.com/blog/how-long-do-hard-drives-last/
https://www.recordnations.com/articles/hard-drive-lifespan/
These were quick google searches for "average life span of hard drives".

The TL;DR of it is, hard drive have an average life span of 3 to 5 years. If the alternative to optical disks is a NAS, which utilizes hard drives, I'm honestly not seeing what makes HDDs that much better. For a solid backup you would want a RAID setup (minimum of two drives). If one of those fails, you still have to buy a new HDD to reconstruct the RAID before the other HDD fails.

Now, let's take a quick look at optical media...
https://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec4/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246856696_Optical_Disc_Life_Expectancy_A_Field_Report
Again, these were quick google searches for "average life span optical discs"

The TL;DR here says +R, +RW, etc, etc discs have an average life expectancy of 20+ years, while regular, factory pressed CD/DVD disks have an estimated average life span between 25 to 100 years (some estimates suggest upwards of 200 years). This even with Disc Rot as a possibility.

Finally... let's even agree with each other. DVD/CDs AND HDDs are less than ideal for long term storage... create a new physical distribution media. One of my original posts on this thread suggested an SD card-esk physical media (at least in form factor). Much smaller than an optical disk, and no moving parts like a hard drive... hell... that's pretty much the distribution model of DS games.

((NOTE: I say "google search", but I use Duck Duck Go as my search engine... if that matters to anyone))

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