Quoting: Rooster

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: ObsidianBlkThose neon warning signs are there,

I think part of the problem was that there was no neon warning signs. The only warnings Linus got was an error from popshop that wasn't clear on what was happening... and a giant wall of text from apt.

That 'wall of text' ends with "you are about to remove essential packages, type exactly, 'Yes, I know what I'm doing' to continue."

Which is more than enough to say 'stop, you're about to do something horrendous to your system.' I have made many jokes before about not being able to do flashing red text in Confluence because of people not following the wiki... But really there are two things to blame here. 1) Linus being smart enough to be dangerous. 2) Linus not being patient enough to read the warning.

Since Linux distros wait for more users coming over from the Windows realm, package managers should expect users coming that have been trained to ignore most of the text that is beeing thrown at them during installation of software. For them it is almost unthinkable that the installation of a gaming software could uninstall parts of their OS.
So I think it's an improvement that such users now actively have to search for the command that can do harm, instead of being able to use it by just ignoring something.
I would love the error message being clickable (depending on the kind of error of course), linking the user to a site where he/she can read about and report problems and solutions with the package that led to the error.

I say there are 2 issues here:
The first one 100% apt/Pop OS fault and that is that this should NEVER have happened during simple package installation, even if done from terminal.

But.. as anyone who worked with computers for a long time knows.. One of those things that should NEVER happen will eventually happen. Doesn't matter if you are on Linux, Mac or Windows. Which brings me to the second issue.

The second issue is 50% user fault and 50% Windows fault for training its users to be dumb and not read Warnings (yes even if it's a simple installation of package, user should be expected to read Warnings and Errors).

So instead of package managers having to expect that their users will not read Warnings (which imo is ridiculous), I would say that the distros aimed at new users like Mint and Pop should include a message when running the Terminal (with the option to disable the message for future) that the Terminal is a high level tool and the user is expected to read and understand potential Warnings.

In my opinion the ridiculous part here is that you need to have superuser rights to install a simple application.
There are people out there, who are something in between new users and geeks. They are people that want to use computers in a secure, private way. They don't want to mess with their OS more than nessessary. Most of them are now on Windows or Mac and not on Linux, for a reason..
I think distros like Mint and Pop are not primarily aimed at new users, but at those people, new users or not. And since Mint and Pop (and ...) don't stand in the way of more advanced users, they're good for those too.
So the question is: Do they find a way to welcome the users they're aimed at, without giving up certain principles?

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Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: ObsidianBlkThose neon warning signs are there,

I think part of the problem was that there was no neon warning signs. The only warnings Linus got was an error from popshop that wasn't clear on what was happening... and a giant wall of text from apt.

That 'wall of text' ends with "you are about to remove essential packages, type exactly, 'Yes, I know what I'm doing' to continue."

Which is more than enough to say 'stop, you're about to do something horrendous to your system.' I have made many jokes before about not being able to do flashing red text in Confluence because of people not following the wiki... But really there are two things to blame here. 1) Linus being smart enough to be dangerous. 2) Linus not being patient enough to read the warning.

Since Linux distros wait for more users coming over from the Windows realm, package managers should expect users coming that have been trained to ignore most of the text that is beeing thrown at them during installation of software. For them it is almost unthinkable that the installation of a gaming software could uninstall parts of their OS.
So I think it's an improvement that such users now actively have to search for the command that can do harm, instead of being able to use it by just ignoring something.
I would love the error message being clickable (depending on the kind of error of course), linking the user to a site where he/she can read about and report problems and solutions with the package that led to the error.

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Cinnamon is currently exactly what I need. I like Plasma, Mate and XFCE, because I can make them what I need. Also, the KDE software is great!

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Quoting: Philadelphus

Quoting: Holzkohlen

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.

I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.

Yeah, from my point of view it was a cautious success, and left a nice supportive comment on the video (which I'm sure will be lost among the 7,000 others) to let them know there are those of us cheering them on in their attempt. It's easy to overlook with Linus's situation, but Luke gets Linux Mint installed, gets Steam installed, and runs a game with no issues. In the first episode. His experience was basically boring (seeing as how no one is really talking about it), which is really encouraging! Meanwhile Linus manages to bork his first choice within fifteen minutes, yes, but instead of giving up for the day (an action I wouldn't blame anyone for doing at that point) he gives it a second go and gets a second distro installed. Sure it's got a sound bug, but that's probably something he'll be able to fix after a good night's sleep and a few hours of Googling, and will probably be straightened out in the second episode.

The overall tone was quite levelheaded and even, with no one smugly proclaiming Windows' superiority or Linux's inferiority, and no one angrily swore off Linux for life. I suspect (or at least hope) that with the public challenge to keep them using Linux for a month, by forcing themselves to stick with it they'll get over the initial hump of difficulties everyone new to Linux encounters and get into the smooth sailing regions well before the time is up. I'm sure they'll probably try playing some AAA games that don't work or maybe some complicated streaming setup that fails or something, but on the whole I expect the overall experience to be pretty painless after the initial few days.

Quoting: F.UltraI just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

Stephen Hawking said that, when he was writing A Brief History of Time, his publisher told him that for every equation he put in the book he would lose half his readership. He ended up including only a single equation, and the book became a phenomenal bestseller.

I suggest a corollary: every time you require use of the terminal, you lose half your potential user base. Let's face it, the majority of computer users are only barely comfortable handling a GUI in the first place. Requiring such people to use the terminal is like requiring people who are barely comfortable with arithmetic to solve non-linear partial differential equations. I absolutely agree that the terminal is one of the best parts of Linux, and people should be able to use it as much as they want; but I also believe that people having to use will probably see Linux's fraction of desktop usage never break a few percent. (This is where different distros come in; you can have a range of distros from "never need the terminal ever" to "doesn't have a window manager", and that's fine as people can self-sort according to their comfort level as long as there are beginner-friendly distros for them to start off with.) So I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view for a new-to-Linux user...

Incredible how much almost no one notices that Mint had almost no issues (aside from having to unplug the second monitor during installation. A problem common to Linux, and a solution which even non technical users can come up with). I guess Mint is not a big enough challenge to be noticed much anymore.. ;-)

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Quoting: Spyker

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: BielFPsI'm not a kde user, but I am a fan of some of their software like Krita and Kdenlive, so I'm happy that their efforts are being recognized and hope that those improves include their wayland compositor too.

I would be maybe.. but somehow I have the feeling KDE and Nvidia aren't friends...
Even the installation of Fedora KDE crashes all the time for me.

I tried KDE Plasma on Fedora 34 recently and it seems to work well.
I had 2 issues though:
- I don't know why but the Discord app keeps crashing when launched on Plasma (the same app is perfectly stable on Gnome), it may be a flatpak issue though.
- I have 2 screens and my wallpaper has the resolution of my 2 screens combined. I didn't find the option to span the wallpaper on the 2 screens at once.

I got it to install finally by using the fallback mode but the installed system wasn't stable when I installed proprietary drivers, so I deleted it.
I only do this out of interest anyway, to see what's out there. Maybe I find something that's as reliable and as stable as Mint one day, and that adds something else, that Mint lacks.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: NeverthelessI would be maybe.. but somehow I have the feeling KDE and Nvidia aren't friends...
Even the installation of Fedora KDE crashes all the time for me.

KDE on Nvidia's been perfectly fine for me since I started using it ~three years ago.

Interesting! Maybe I should try Kubunto, or Manjaro..

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Quoting: BielFPsI'm not a kde user, but I am a fan of some of their software like Krita and Kdenlive, so I'm happy that their efforts are being recognized and hope that those improves include their wayland compositor too.

I would be maybe.. but somehow I have the feeling KDE and Nvidia aren't friends...
Even the installation of Fedora KDE crashes all the time for me.

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I stand corrected about the Manjaro update policy. I actually like that much more than the Arch way, cause I think it should help to prevent a lot of upstream problems I wouldn't want to deal with.
Unfortunately every time I tried out Manjaro something broke after an update.. maybe I should try again.

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Quoting: BielFPs

Quoting: NeverthelessValve guy shows how it's updated, and he says "system, Steamplay and Bios-updates" are updated at once in a big package for the benefit of knowing exactly whats on the device.
So I wouldn't expect anything like Manjaro..

Manjaro usually release updates in "packages" too like you can see here [External Link]
They're even criticized by vanilla Arch/other forks users for not releasing new packages in the same way as those.

I also couldn't open your youtube link, but judging by your comment for me it seems pretty much similar to Manjaro, but packaged to look like just a single thing (plus bios updates which is nice)

Thanks, the link works now.

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: NeverthelessIn one of the hands on videos ( https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/c274cab9-49dd-48b2-acf3-7b6bc8574acb [External Link] )
at around 9 minutes, the Valve guy shows how it's updated, and he says "system, Steamplay and Bios-updates" are updated at once in a big package for the benefit of knowing exactly whats on the device.
So I wouldn't expect anything like Manjaro..

Well, that is basically how Manjaro do updates though. They bundle everything together, test a bit and then release. Just because Valve have more (like their own stuff included), doesn't mean it's entirely different.

Not entirely, but I wouldn't expect much choice regarding kernel/drivers/system software.
And like I said, I think that would be a good idea.

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